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Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | (show all)   Rate thread Print Thread
Longhorn_Fan68Sponsor
10,000+ posts
06/10/08 04:36 PM
people who make $200k are not rich

The Link

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mop
2500+ posts
06/10/08 04:42 PM
Re: McCain camp: people who make $200k are not ric [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

are people who make 200k rich?

i dont think they are....and i make about 50 (in a good year)

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FondrenRoad
1000+ posts
06/10/08 04:42 PM
Re: McCain camp: people who make $200k are not ric [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

People without a clue. Reminds me of when Shaq said he thought the average American income was 300k. Shaq should certainly know better, but so should McCain. That statement is totally out of touch with wage and salary earners of any level.

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Longhorn_Fan68Sponsor
10,000+ posts
06/10/08 04:43 PM
Re: McCain camp: people who make $200k are not ric [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

I'd love to make half of "not rich"

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Horn6721
1000+ posts
06/10/08 04:43 PM
Re: McCain camp: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Fan68
where in that link did anyone from McCain's campaign say they didn't think people making 200k were rich?

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general35
2500+ posts
06/10/08 04:45 PM
Re: McCain camp: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

i think it is not only individuals but families that make over 200k are included. regardless, 200k is not much at all if you own a home, have a couple nice cars, kids in private school...you are bacisally living paycheck to paycheck saving a little along the way. obama doesnt have that problem because he gets to live that lifestyle and make close to a million a year, he can afford the extra 4%...and you can ask anyone that lives somewhere like new york whether 200k makes them rich....

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Texas007
2500+ posts
06/10/08 04:46 PM
Re: McCain camp: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

I know a lot of people who make 200k, and I would not classify most of them as rich. By the time they buy their house, cars, etc well they end up in the same boat as most other people - living paycheck to paycheck. Like the guy who make 75k per year who has a decent house, decent car, bills, etc the guy with 200k buys a bit better house, car, etc but ends up in pretty much the same economic spot with regard to saving and wealth building. 200k is a lot of money, and you are certainly well off, but not rich. Not in this day and age.




The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

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Sooner in Korea
25+ posts
06/10/08 04:47 PM
Re: McCain camp: people who make $200k are not ric [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

I would say that 200k is high-income.

Not sure about “rich” until I see someone's net worth. 200K might not help if your servicing 500k in total debt and have 3 kids and an ex-wife.

When you invest in common stock do you stop at the income statement and just ignore the balance sheet and cash flow?




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Ramathorn
5000+ posts
06/10/08 04:49 PM
Re: McCain camp: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Above avearage? yes. Rich? No. You can live comfortable though. I think 400-500k is when you can start talking "rich."




"In other news, Austin, Texas was named best place to date in the United States. The title of the worst place belongs to Daterapesville, Maine." Jimmy Fallon

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Longhorn_Fan68Sponsor
10,000+ posts
06/10/08 04:50 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

where in that link did anyone from McCain's campaign say they didn't think people making 200k were rich?




edited the title since the references were unclear.

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mop
2500+ posts
06/10/08 04:52 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

rich is asset based...but my inlaws regularly make over 200k but are certainly NOT rich.....

i am not privileged (except in the classic american sense)...and grew up with divorced parents raised by my single mom......4 of us children in all. she raised us on a private school teacher's salary (that means she made far less than public school teachers).....so i am anything but "out of touch." i made the most i have ever made last year and it was near 70K after a real estate deal that closed, but wages were closer to 50K........but i don't think 200k is rich. it is comfortable, but not rich.....in American terms.

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Stuck_At_Work
1000+ posts
06/10/08 04:54 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

The problem with America is that 200k is not rich. We crave luxury that even at 200k we can't afford. We buy nicer cars and bigger houses. We are never satisfied.

Meanwhile in 3rd world countries...





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Horn6721
1000+ posts
06/10/08 04:57 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Fan68
thank you

and FWIW i bet people who make 35k or less think people making 200k are rich

However many of those who make 200k are small business people who run their biz as an S corp or LLC with everything going through personal taxes. Many of these small businesses employ 1-5 people.
small businesses in general employ ther largest chunk of people employed in private sector
a small business making 200k taxable would suffer greatly if obama gets his tax increase

and the first thing to get cut would be employees

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FondrenRoad
1000+ posts
06/10/08 04:57 PM
Re: McCain camp: people who make $200k are not ric [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Somebody making 200k should be able to save significantly. If they are living check to check then they are not managing their money well at all. Perhaps they should have gotten a house they could afford and sent their kids to public school or a cheaper private school.

If you're defining "rich" as yearly income, then I'd say 200k qualifies. It puts you in the top 10%. If you define "rich" as accumulated wealth, then it depends on the individual. The person who lives check to check isn't gonna accumulate wealth whether they are making 40k or 250k. The difference is one splurges on a BMW 3 series and a studio apartment in a luxury tower in uptown Houston. The other splurges on a 9 series or a Porsche and a million dollar home. Now if they manage to get to the point where they have a solid amount of equity in their residence, then they'll be okay, but really both of them should knock their lifestyle down a notch.

I also take back what I said about McCain. He didn't say it. Its Bartiromo that's out of touch.

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Stuck_At_Work
1000+ posts
06/10/08 05:01 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

Somebody making 200k should be able to save significantly. If they are living check to check then they are not managing their money well at all. Perhaps they should have gotten a house they could afford and sent their kids to public school or a cheaper private school.




But I deserve that Lamborghinni.

In reply to:

If you're defining "rich" as yearly income




Yes, that is how we are defining it. Nobody thinks 200k in total worth is rich.




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FondrenRoad
1000+ posts
06/10/08 05:06 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

However many of those who make 200k are small business people who run their biz as an S corp or LLC with everything going through personal taxes. Many of these small businesses employ 1-5 people.




You realize the 200k is "income", right? Its what's left after expenses, including employees' salaries. Someone always trots this out on this board, as if this will hit small business owners worse than others. Small business owners are not paying taxes on revenues, they are paying it on income. They also have a lot of tax advantages that are not available to the W-2 worker. There are plenty of small businesses that employ several workers and make little to no profit for their owners. The increased tax load on a small business owner making 200k in income will not come out of an employee's salary.

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elguapo
500+ posts
06/10/08 05:07 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

By the time they buy their house, cars, etc well they end up in the same boat as most other people - living paycheck to paycheck.



I'm sorry but anyone who is making 200k a year and still living paycheck to paycheck is extremely irresponsible/terrible with money.

In Texas, 200k a year is rich.




Uhhhhhh... if we sounded like sip fans, wouldn't we be talking about winning? - Texags Poster

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Horn6721
1000+ posts
06/10/08 05:09 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Fond
you posted, "Perhaps they should have gotten a house they could afford"
couldn't agree more, same with cars, newest tech toys etc
and I know you apply that to the people make less than 200k but who bought houses they couldn't afford and are now asking us to bail them out

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sak
1000+ posts
06/10/08 05:09 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

200K income should put you in the top 5%. That is by any standards well above average. As people have already mentioned, if you cannot live comfortably and save on 200K, then it is your problem. But as far as rich is concerned, it is more of a net worth. So annual income is only part of it.

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TexonLongIsland
1000+ posts
06/10/08 05:13 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Bartiromo is a spokesperson for the McCain campaign? Wow, I didn't know that.

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Fetoid
25+ posts
06/10/08 05:14 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Consider your average primary care MD, for whom 200k in the door would be far and away above the average income. But then again, it ain't much when you have to service $200K in student loan debt on top $20-$40k or much more for malpractice insurance, the mortgage, car, basic family expenses (braces, yadda yadda yadda), etc, without living extravagantly at all. Debt is the great equalizer.

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FondrenRoad
1000+ posts
06/10/08 05:14 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

and I know you apply that to the people make less than 200k but who bought houses they couldn't afford and are now asking us to bail them out




I included the typical 40k millionaire in my post. Everyone should live within their means.

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Ag with kids
2500+ posts
06/10/08 05:15 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Rich people don't get paychecks, fwiw...

At least not in the sense most of us are used to receiving...

I'd say $200K is on the high end of upper middle class, though...two professionals making ~$100K apiece...heck, you could make $160-200K if you and your wife worked on the floor at the GM plant and both did OT...most people wouldn't think of two shop workers from GM as being "rich"...




Eric '90

The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.

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mojo17
25+ posts
06/10/08 05:22 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

200k is not rich, if you live within your means you can live comfortably. 200k=100k after federal, state, and local taxes. If you have a couple of kids in college, a mortgage, and a couple of car payments see if you feel like a rich person. If you do make 200k I assume you did something to deserve it, like study, and hard work. So do not throw I make 35k and 200k is rich to me. You also do not pay as much tax.

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Sooner in Korea
25+ posts
06/10/08 05:28 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Fetoid,

Thank you for pointing out other cases where debt is accumulated. I know I didn't want any part of a MBA or JD at the end of my four years b/c 14k of student loans scared me into the workforce.

Our society tends to rely too much on income as an accurate snapshot of financial health. Most states calculate spousal maintenance and child support on gross income alone. That kinda sucks for the MD who gets divorced after 3 years of practice.




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FondrenRoad
1000+ posts
06/10/08 05:35 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Again, y'all are confusing asset accumulation with income. We are getting taxed on income. Anyone who is in the top 5% of income earners should be on their way to becoming rich in assets. If they get to retirement and their assets don't put them in the top 5% of asset holders, then they managed poorly.

Also isn't medical malpractice insurance an above the line business expense? If it is, it doesn't count as income, because that's what we are talking about here. Income. Not total asset holdings. Not revenue.

Student loan debt can definitely hurt. On that I agree. Its a mortgage without a house. Paid interest on student loans should not be phased out as it is now.

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groverat
2500+ posts
06/10/08 05:38 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: FondrenRoad]

People who make $200k are within the Top 5% of income earners. They are rich. (Or, if they are new to the $200k/year job they are becoming rich.)

It seems like some of you think "rich" means "have everything they could ever want and still be swimming in cash". Rich just means the cream of the crop.





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Ramathorn
5000+ posts
06/10/08 05:44 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Mojo, noone is saying that.




"In other news, Austin, Texas was named best place to date in the United States. The title of the worst place belongs to Daterapesville, Maine." Jimmy Fallon

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Seattle Husker
5000+ posts
06/10/08 06:03 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

It doesn't take a whole lot to hit $200k gross living on the coasts. I say that as someone who is nearing that at the age of 35. Salaries are simply higher on the coasts. This is also a big reason why the housing prices are so much greater in the Seattle and Bay area. There is much more disposable income to soak up.

Now, $200k in Bentonville, AK would very likely put someone in the "rich" category. In Seattle that puts you in the upper middle class where a non-remodeled 60's daylight ramber with a view can cost >$1M.

At least in my case much of that income is eaten up by the mortgage and my familyis a single income family with 3 young boys in public school. Shoot, simpy playing sports costs an arm and a leg. $130 just for T-ball.




"It ain't where I've been fat boy, it's where I'm going."-Tommie Frazier, late in the 3rd quarter in response to repeated smack talking by Warren Sapp in the '95 Orange Bowl.

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JohnnyM
5000+ posts
06/10/08 06:11 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

Small business owners are not paying taxes on revenues, they are paying it on income.




Could you please tell that to the State of California. Their tax system for LLC's is revenue based, as [censored] asinine as that is.

200k is rich in comparison to the average American, but not rich when you compare it to people who we all agree are "rich". Thus, the word "rich" is fairly meaningless.

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Ramathorn
5000+ posts
06/10/08 06:22 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Actually, ain't Bentonville home of the Waltons?




"In other news, Austin, Texas was named best place to date in the United States. The title of the worst place belongs to Daterapesville, Maine." Jimmy Fallon

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FondrenRoad
1000+ posts
06/10/08 06:36 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

Actually, ain't Bentonville home of the Waltons?




That's Bentonville, AR. Seattle Husker was talking about Bentonville, Alaska.

I guess nobody's rich so long as someone else makes more than them. So right now, only Bill Gates is rich, but maybe next year, he'll be middle class and that guy in Mexico will be rich.

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Whitman Mayo
2004 Omaha Sweepstakes Champion
06/10/08 06:36 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

The problem with the term "rich" is everyone has a different definition.

Lets just use something simple, like where they fall amongst their fellow Americans. If you make 200K, that puts in in the top 5% of wager earners. 95% of the country makes less than you.

If the top 5% of this country arent "rich," then taxes aint the problem.




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MaduroUTMB
5000+ posts
06/10/08 06:36 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Most people in that yearly income range spent 6-15 years delaying the receipt of significant income and work hard for the money that they make. If by "rich" you mean "people who made and continue to make sacrifices to generate a large yearly income" then yes, members of this group are rich. If by "rich" you mean people who did not work to accumulate personal wealth and who are able to live off of their assets, then these wage-earners are not rich.

The statement is accurate apart from the connotations that Democrats frequently refer to with the term "rich".




November 27th, 2008. No Mercy.

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Whitman Mayo
2004 Omaha Sweepstakes Champion
06/10/08 06:39 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: elguapo]

In reply to:

I'm sorry but anyone who is making 200k a year and still living paycheck to paycheck is extremely irresponsible/terrible with money.




Dit -fing- Oh

A bunch of spoiled mf'ers who use congress as their model on how to base their finances. Screw saving money or living within your means, spend spend spend. Gotta have a new car every year and buy a house that stretches your budget. F those people.






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FondrenRoad
1000+ posts
06/10/08 06:50 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

So a doctor who goes straight to med school after undergrad, takes out the average amount of loans, starts at around 200k, and works until retirement isn't gonna be pretty well off at the end of it? And really, he should be "rich" at the end of it, or he isn't managing his finances right. You don't have to be Warren Buffett or Paris Hilton to be rich.

"Rich" is defined in comparison to others. If you're top 5%, you are doing pretty [censored] well. That's not top 5% of Haitian earners. That's a top 5% earner in the wealthiest country in the world.

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badexcuseSponsor
2500+ posts
06/10/08 06:55 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: mop]

In reply to:

rich is asset based




Agree. Would you rather be retired with little income, own a nice home, a ranch/vacation home and substantial savings or some who makes a million/year and spends a million five? Income doesn't mean crap if you don't properly manage it.

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Hornin Hong KongSponsor
10,000+ posts
06/10/08 06:59 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

200k is rich no doubt if you are single and live in texas.




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LAktownhorn
500+ posts
06/10/08 07:01 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

i make over 200k a year and i don't feel rich. i live in LA and my dream is too someday afford a house with a yard! maybe being rich is all relative?

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FondrenRoad
1000+ posts
06/10/08 07:14 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

i make over 200k a year and i don't feel rich. i live in LA and my dream is too someday afford a house with a yard! maybe being rich is all relative?




You could afford one now in LA or Orange County if you're making 200k a year. Probably not Malibu or Beverly Hills, but in a good area. I think a lot of people are confusing obscene wealth with wealth. Maybe we're watching too much reality TV, so we think a lot more people are living like Paris Hilton than actually are.

Maybe I'm not doing well either because I can't afford an 8 acre spread in Manhattan with a modest little home at the center. I mean just a modest little 3 bedroom ranch style with maybe a detached garage? I'll never be rich in that case. Maybe I'm pushing it. I'll settle for a block around 5 acres.

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PiGuy
1000+ posts
06/10/08 07:17 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Before or after taxes? 35% of 200k is 70k, not including social security or other deductions.

130k = upper middle class, but not rich

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SDhorn
1000+ posts
06/10/08 07:27 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Certainly, there are some people making $200K a year who are poor in more ways than monetarily.

But if you are making $200K a year regularly, money should not be an impediment to living a very rich life.

And of course, the tax increase Maria is so worried about does not touch someone making only $200K a year. All it does is increase the tax on every dollar earned over 200K by 4%.

So if you are making 200K this year and you are lucky and you get a $20K raise, the proposed tax increase will cost you $800.

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mia1994
1000+ posts
06/10/08 07:29 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: PiGuy]

In reply to:

Before or after taxes? 35% of 200k is 70k, not including social security or other deductions.

130k = upper middle class, but not rich



$130K net is rich. Top 5% income is rich.

It is not decadent, but it is certainly rich.




Against Michigan in the Rose Bowl, UT down 10 points with 10 minutes to play, Young slapped Brown on the stomach and said, "Don't worry, Coach, I got this."

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bozo_casanova
5000+ posts
06/10/08 07:56 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

All the six figure income earners, myself included, better not pretend for a day that you aren't rich, and if you don't feel rich that's either because you have poorly set expectations or you spend your money foolishly or live in a part of the country that requires a high income, which is how you decided to spend your money, to wit:

In reply to:


i think it is not only individuals but families that make over 200k are included. regardless, 200k is not much at all if you own a home, have a couple nice cars, kids in private school...


Do you know how many Americans can actually afford the median house right now? Less than 50%. How many can actualy afford nice cars? Even less. How many can afford private school? Not many. All three? Very few. Do you know what people who can afford all three are called? "Rich".
In reply to:

I know a lot of people who make 200k, and I would not classify most of them as rich. By the time they buy their house, cars, etc well they end up in the same boat as most other people - living paycheck to paycheck. Like the guy who make 75k per year who has a decent house, decent car, bills, etc the guy with 200k buys a bit better house, car, etc but ends up in pretty much the same economic spot with regard to saving and wealth building.


That's because they bought more house, car, etc than they needed. Cry me a [censored] river.
In reply to:

If you have a couple of kids in college, a mortgage, and a couple of car payments see if you feel like a rich person.


See above
In reply to:

i make over 200k a year and i don't feel rich. i live in LA and my dream is too someday afford a house with a yard! maybe being rich is all relative?


Well, yes and no. Considering the demand for living in LA, the fact that you live there and other people who want to don't because it's too expensive is an expression of your wealth. I mean, if it wasn't worth it you'd leave, right?

In other words, I am sick and [censored] tired of listening to and reading the whining self-pitying [censored] from people who are blessed by God to make top 10% incomes and get to live in the greatest country at the safest time in history of mankind, given that your grievance is that you aren't in the top 1%. You know what? The top 1% have "generational" wealth, basically because they caught lightening in a bottle and things broke their way. Good for them. But that's not a reason for the second-luckiest people in the history of humanity (me and you) to be pissing and moaning about our economic lot. We are rich beyond the comprehension of 99.99% of all the people on Earth right now and 99.999% of all the people who have ever lived.

So shut the [censored] up and enjoy it, will you?




BOOM! POW!

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TexonLongIsland
1000+ posts
06/10/08 08:17 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

So shut the [censored] up and enjoy it, will you?




I can't, the government keeps taking more and more of it




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FondrenRoad
1000+ posts
06/10/08 08:22 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

I can't, the government keeps taking more and more of it




We can fix that. Take a job making 9 dollars an hour, and you can pay less taxes. Seems like a win-win situation.

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TexonLongIsland
1000+ posts
06/10/08 08:35 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

We can fix that. Take a job making 9 dollars an hour, and you can pay less taxes. Seems like a win-win situation.




I remember playing that game years ago. Working insane hours and making a "rich" salary. After-tax hourly wage didn't come to much above that.




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FondrenRoad
1000+ posts
06/10/08 08:44 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Where do y'all work where they quote your wages or salary after tax?

Even if you worked every single hour of the year at 9 dollars an hour, it would only bring you a little over 78,000. Since you said after tax, we'll make that 108,000. That amount isn't even close to the number we're discussing. And that's every single hour of the year.

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TexonLongIsland
1000+ posts
06/10/08 08:57 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

It's not that hard to figure out

Single $125,000 (when we talk about rich at $200k that would mostly be two income families filing jointly) work 80-90/hours a week. NY City taxes at around 50% total. That comes to about $13.50/hour.

I can also reasonably state the the person above's productivity and contribution to the GDP was higher per hour worked.






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BA93
5000+ posts
06/10/08 09:05 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: TexonLongIsland]

I guess I would classify rich more in terms of assets but if you make 200K/yr, you should be building your assets much quicker. But if 200K puts you in the top 5% earners, I would say that you are among the most highly compensated employees in the country.

Regardless I think this is a pointless thread. Rich or wealthy is a subjective term. I would guess the guy making 25K thinks 100K is rich but the guy making 400K doesn't think 300K is rich.

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groverat
2500+ posts
06/10/08 09:14 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: BA93]

The "$200k isn't much if you live in X" isn't a viable argument. The very fact that you can live where you do is a sign of how wealthy you are. There's a reason people with single teacher salaries can't afford a tiny condo in the nicer parts of Manhattan.

If you gross $200k/year you are rich. Whether or not you choose to spend that on real estate, location, or whatever is your business, but you are rich.





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sak
1000+ posts
06/10/08 09:17 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Ok, this is the only relevant data I could find with a quick search. The AGI of top 5% in 2005 is $145283. Top 1% is $364,657. So a 200K AGI is well within top 5% and probably in top 2-3%. By what criteria is some one in the top 3% not well above average in terms of income?

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TexonLongIsland
1000+ posts
06/10/08 09:21 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

There's a reason people with single teacher salaries can't afford a tiny condo in the nicer parts of Manhattan.




That might have a lot to do with rent control. Another temporary government "fix" that distorts the market to the detriment of the poor.

Don't know many single teachers in River Oaks, Highland Park or Westlake, come to think of it




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Rip76
5000+ posts
06/10/08 09:21 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

"The problem with America is that 200k is not rich. We crave luxury that even at 200k we can't afford. We buy nicer cars and bigger houses. We are never satisfied."

Just wondering. Doesn't that put more money back into the economy?

So the "rich" spend more, but they should be taxed more as well?

that's rich.

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Back to Texas
25+ posts
06/10/08 09:24 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: TexonLongIsland]

This thread is fascinating. People are accusing people of being rich, but don't even try to define what it means beyond a nod to asset base vs. income level.

Rich depends on your perspective and to me its all about net asset position. To me rich is wealth that cannot be taken away from you - you could lose your job, but your so liquid and in a great asset position it doesn't impact you that adversely. If you make me pick an income that crosses the line to legitimately rich is $700k+ per year. To me, at that level you should be paying cash for everything you buy - cars, houses, etc - and banking savings in the 6 figures each year.

I think many people would be shocked to learn the amount of people that make WELL north of $200k per year who are not really accumulating any wealth at all - they're paying $1000+ in car payments, $5,000 mortgage, $15,000x2 for private school, etc - and feel as much pressure as some copier salesman each morning when they get out of bed to go cover their nut. I have known several surgeons in this sort of boat - in fact then their practice slowed, they tapped debt to keep up their lifestyle so that their wives wouldn't get mad.

I am just saying $200k doesn't go that far. Run the numbers. I think it was Patrick Ewing whose sweet insight lent us, "we make a lot, but we spend a lot" when speaking of NBA players. Many, many, people get sucked into the trappings of wealth and never really get ahead even as their income grows.






"It takes a special person to understand and love being a part of the traditions that encompass being an Aggie. The "average" person will never understand what it means to "Bleed Maroon"." -texags poster

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sak
1000+ posts
06/10/08 09:32 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

I agree that "rich" is the wrong word here. But when we are talking about taxing incomes, if top 3% is not considered to be in the very highest bracket, then who is?

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fratboy_legend
250+ posts
06/10/08 09:36 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Rich = wealth

wealth comes from savings

Savings are whats left over from Income, therefore income is the driver

assume 200k joint income in texas

Taxes FICA, SS, = 7.5%
Income Taxes, assume 28% effective (effectively, the AMT rate)

After Tax Income: 130k

2.3 kids + Spouse = 3000 sf house @ $150 / SF = 450k @ 6% cost of money and 3% tax burden plus operating expenses of 10k per year = 50k

now we are at 80k

Private school ($150 a square foot doesnt buy you a good school district) = 5k per year minimum x 2.3 kids = 12k.

Basic food needs - $20 per person per day = 30k

Childcare - most 200k households have 2 income earners - what, 10k?

down to $28k

"Wife Overhead" -- a highly variable category. includes but is not limited to:
Clothes
Shoes
Handbags
pedicures
gym membership
facials
vacation
and on and on and on.

minimum $500 a month --MINIMUM-- and could be many times that

now we are anywhere from 10-20k lets call it $15k

Other Debt service, may be school loans, CC from when younger, car payment whatever - doenst matter its a catch all - assume what, 20k @ 8%? = almost 2k in interest plus some principal? call it 3k?

Daddy overhead: mostly at strip clubs but may include the occasional fishing trip / ball game (LF dues and season tix = $1k per year right there) Total: 2k (dads get the shaft)

now we are at a whopping $10k of "net income". thats a 5% profit margin.

and we are about to levy a "windfall profits tax" on this business.

tragic.

Edited by fratboy_legend (06/10/08 09:56 PM)

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zzzz
10,000+ posts
06/10/08 09:38 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

they tapped debt to keep up their lifestyle so that their wives wouldn't get mad.


In reply to:

One of (Ms. Chemtob’s) clients recently confessed that his net worth had decreased to $8 million from more than $20 million, and he thinks that his wife will leave him. He has hidden their fall in fortune by taking on debt to pay for her extravagant clothes and vacations.

NYT:The Link








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YoLaDu
500+ posts
06/10/08 09:40 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

The nearly 3 BILLION people in the world who live on $2.00 a day consider those whose make 200,000 a year rich.

bozo_casanova post should put an end to this silly, self centered thread. Get over yourselves. 99.5% of the people that live in the US are rich by the world's definition of rich.

When you all start living on $2 a day, you can start posting on the web and whine to me all you want, but then again, you probably wouldn't have running water or electricity, so posting and whining on the internet about how you don't feel rich wouldn't be an option.

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Rip76
5000+ posts
06/10/08 09:47 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

"The nearly 3 BILLION people in the world who live on $2.00 a day consider those whose make 200,000 a year rich."

am I to blame for this?
are you to blame for this?
is America to blame for this?

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hornv
250+ posts
06/10/08 09:55 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Fratboy legend nailed it.

This is not a third world country. Someone that makes $10k a year in India is probably rich. In the U.S. they couldn't feed, shelter or clothe their kids without help. It is apples and oranges. Nobody is questioning whether or not someone making $2 a day in Ethiopa is rich or not. Hell, they would feel rich if they just lived in the U.S.

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Whitman Mayo
2004 Omaha Sweepstakes Champion
06/10/08 09:59 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Fratboy did nail it. The person who makes 200K and spends like that is a [censored] idiot. How about getting a 2500 sq ft house, and not spending a 1000+ a month on cars.... Nah, that would actually be the responsible thing to do. I am going to spend every last dime and [censored].




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TexonLongIsland
1000+ posts
06/10/08 10:03 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

When you all start living on $2 a day,




Well since nobody in our country lives on anywhere close to that we should all count ourselves rich and quit asking for Medicaid/Food Stamps/prescription drug benefits etc




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fratboy_legend
250+ posts
06/10/08 10:08 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

ok, that just saved me $8k per year, half of which will flow right out the door in increased wife overhead, netting me $4k. big [censored] deal.

If you read what i posted you will see that all of my assumptions were really rather conservative--no $1k per month car payments in there.

for those of you too lazy to read it, the biggest buckets are:

1) Taxes - making the country better today
2) Shelter - one of the 3 basic needs
3) Food - ditto
4) Education for kids - making the country better tomorrow

its not like its all hookers and blow on a carribean island my friend...

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PiGuy
1000+ posts
06/10/08 10:13 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Fratboy your argument is invalid because if I really wanted to save there's no need for half that [censored]. I don't need to send my kids to private school, I don't need the cars, the big house or downtown loft, I can 'survive' on $10 of food a day.

It all scales. Someone who makes 50k will do the same things but they will do less of them. If someone who makes 200k spends like someone who lives on 50k does, guess what, they'll save a [censored] load.

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YoLaDu
500+ posts
06/10/08 10:20 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

am I to blame for this?
are you to blame for this?
is America to blame for this?




no, no, and no. I am not blaming anyone for the extreme wealth of this country. I am glad i live in a wealthy country. But I think a little perspective is in order when we start wringing our hands over whether 200K a year is "rich" or not. 3,000,000,000 people on this planet will not even spend quarter of that amount in their lifetime.

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FondrenRoad
1000+ posts
06/10/08 10:23 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

I guess MC Hammer was never rich either.

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fratboy_legend
250+ posts
06/10/08 10:32 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: PiGuy]

In reply to:

It all scales




at the income levels we are discussing, you are dead [censored] wrong.

Taxes, the biggest piece, most certainly do NOT scale, in fact they do the opposite - they progress.

again, for the cheap seats (where i guess you are sitting b/c you are so frugal) THERE IS NO EXTRAVAGANT [censored] IN THERE. $150 / sf for a house is not an extreme price and 3000 sf is not a mansion. there is a $20k "catch all" for student loans, car payments, etc. cant buy a benz for $20k...theres no 'downtown loft' etc.

Private schools are pretty much necessary, unless you want to pay a lot more for your house. also note, my 5k per year is conservative.

i think you are missing that there is a family being raised here - kids need good food and a good education and a healthy and safe place to live and grow up. KIds need a mom and the good ones are expensive. thats just the way the world works. quality wives / moms do NOT scale - they are much like taxes in this regard.

Kids and wives are the 2 biggest financial burdens a breadwinner will ever face. there are real costs to raising a family and the numbers get big.

i'd like to know which half you would cut out - or were you just being hyperbolic?

Edited by fratboy_legend (06/10/08 10:35 PM)

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FondrenRoad
1000+ posts
06/10/08 10:38 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

Private schools are pretty much necessary, unless you want to pay a lot more for your house.




Not really. Suburban school districts like FBISD usually have cheaper home prices and solid public schools. So you could buy a house off Hwy 6 in Sugar Land and be zoned Austin or Kempner, both decent high schools, and get a nice sized home for less than 300k.

You see that up near NYC too. In fact, up here, its the urban school districts that are [censored] and have ridiculously high home prices. 450,000 would buy you a one bedroom condo in the good section of Jersey City and you would be zoned to a warzone high school. You get more affordable homes and better public schools as you move away from the center.

If your wife's spending is that out of control, you probably should have never married her. I disagree that a good wife is expensive. A trophy wife is expensive. A good wife has better values than that. Kids are better off learning the value of money at a young age too, so they don't end up like your hypothetical wife.

Edited by FondrenRoad (06/10/08 10:44 PM)

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PiGuy
1000+ posts
06/10/08 10:49 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Jesus [censored], obviously taxes don't scale, but they way you must spend your money scares me shitless. You're basically saying its impossible to raise a family of four on 100k.

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fratboy_legend
250+ posts
06/10/08 10:53 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

listen, you guys are nipping at the periphery of my argument. I will concede that there are places where you can buy a house that is smaller and or cheaper and get by without the private schools.

You will have to concede that these locations come with extra costs - quantifiable ones like incremental gasoline* and higher MUD taxes and more qualitative ones like less time with kids / higher stress factor due to longer commute, extended daycare etc.

at the end of the day that [censored] all nets out - i was painting broad strokes.

the point is that 200k is not enough income to SIMULTANEOUSLY:

1) provide a family with a quality (NOT extravagant) way of life

AND

2) stash loads of cash away in the bank

i stand by my analysis and ask again - what HALF of the cost structure would you eliminate?

i await your well reasoned, specific response.

*if anybody comes back with a "you should buy a hybrid" comment i am going to crawl through my computer and strangle you.

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fratboy_legend
250+ posts
06/10/08 10:56 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: PiGuy]

In reply to:

You're basically saying its impossible to raise a family of four on 100k.




...and build material wealth at the same time.

that is precisely what i am saying.

prove me wrong. lay out the budget and we will let the posters of Hornfans decide.

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overmaars
250+ posts
06/10/08 11:04 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

$150 a square foot doesnt buy you a good school district




I would highly disagree with this statement. And please let me know what private school your kids are going to for $5k a year because that seems cheap as [censored].




Money may not buy happiness, but it'll by a waverunner. Ever try to frown on a waverunner?

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Hornin Hong KongSponsor
10,000+ posts
06/10/08 11:07 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

I think being rich means you can not work and be ok




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eflow24Sponsor
5000+ posts
06/10/08 11:20 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

But I deserve that Lamborghinni.




Nobody who makes $200K a year can afford a Lamborghini unless they have no other bills. I make more than that and I could never afford a Lamborghini. I drive a $33,000 car & a $40,000 car. I definitely have discretionary income and have plenty to spend after all of my donations and paying my bills.

Most of my money is going into longterm investments, such as my home and ranch. I come from a family that made less than $50k combined so I spend pretty wisely. So, yes, I am kinda rich, but it is not like I am burning money.

Once again, this goes by how you define rich. I was rich growing up because my parents did a good job with the little they had we didn't hurt for anything. I will say this though, if you have never been in the 30%+ tax bracket you will never understand why people hate the thought of raising taxes. It is a complete disaster to send that kind of money to the gov't and see them blow it on a bunch of failed programs.




The Link



The beauty of the Longhorn breed!!

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HornHawk
2500+ posts
06/10/08 11:26 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

If you want a snapshot of why Congress can never get anything done, just read this thread. Or hell, anything on the West Mall board. This board is just a mini-Congress, where people [censored] about other people's opinions and never agreeing on anything, and the end result is nothing productive ever gets accomplished.

Sorry, I digress. Carry on.




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bierce
1000+ posts
06/10/08 11:26 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

Fratboy legend nailed it.




Nah, he just nailed a method of changing the parameters and ignoring existing tax deductions and credits. Obama proposes tax increases on individuals making $250K or more, not households making $200K.

What is that 50K home expense? If that includes mortgage interest and property taxes, those are deductible, so they have already been accounted for before determining 250K of taxable income.

You are assuming all the kids need BOTH private school AND childcare? Surely it is either/or. And the latter yields tax credits.

SS/Medicare taxes on $250K would run less than 5% (7.65% on first 100K, and 1.45% on next 150K).

So, figure 40% taxes. Down to 150K.

Home operating expenses of 10K. Down to 140K.

Private school for 15K. Down to 125K.

Lots of good grub costing 30K. Down to 95K.

I'll double the husband-wife frivolities and put that at 15K. Down to 80K.

Go lavish on clothes, games, other goodies for the kids, and extra curricular training for kids (martial arts, music, gymnastics, whatever) 10k. Down to 70K.

I'll even add medical insurance premiums and expenses of 10K. Down to 60K.

I'll add to the other debt services to 5k. Down to 55K.

Let's throw in about 10K for utilities and gasoline, though I would think that's duplicative of a part of what went into home operating expenses. Down to 45K.

So, you have overly large house, great food, 1200 a month to piss away on whatever you want, and all reasonable expenses are taken care of, the kids go to private school and get some great outside training in whatever suits your fancy, and you still have 45K at the end of the year.

Damn, that sucks.

I may be wrong, but I understand Obama is suggesting something to the effect the SS cap be lifted, so the full 7.65% would be taken from the whole 250K, and a 4% increase on taxes, so the tax rate would go from 40 to about 47%.

You still live extraordinarily well (and extravagantly) and bank 28K at the end of the year.

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Hayden_Horn
25,000+ posts
06/10/08 11:49 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

good god, people. i think a household pulling in 90k a year is rich. i'm a homeowner, father of one son (soon to be two), i'm 30, i'm building a career, and i make less than 50k a year. as a matter of fact, if i made 50k a year, i would be doing REALLY well. i have good health coverage, but i pay out the ass of my base salary for that to cover me and my family. my wife does not work - stays home with the kiddo.

if i sniffed 100k a year, i would be rich as hell. if i made 200k a year, after taxes, i guarantee i would be able to sock away at least 25-30k a year. at least.

of course, i drive an 8 year old car that's paid for. my wife (and sometimes me ) drives a minivan that we pay for. i hope to have that [censored] behemoth paid off before i buy my next car. since i drive a toyota, i'm not too worried.

point is, a lot of people lose sight of what is important in their spending. i'm careful about going to lunch - i take leftovers if we have them. i'll make rice and throw salt and pepper on it if i don't. i'll take an "eating out" lunch maybe 2 times a pay period. maybe.

we don't spend extravagantly on our kid. granted, we don't have to spend a lot because grandma hooks us up with diapers anytime she shows up, and she always buys him stuff he doesn't need, etc.

what are you people spending money on? i'm really curious. granted, i'm not a real taxpayer - not making enough with the wife not working and the son - but, [censored]. i'm telling you if i was bringing in 100k after taxes a year, i would be rolling in money.




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fratboy_legend
250+ posts
06/10/08 11:58 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: bierce]

First the bickering:

In reply to:

What is that 50K home expense? If that includes mortgage interest and property taxes, those are deductible, so they have already been accounted for before determining 250K of taxable income.




wrong -- note my clever use of the AMT rate as a way to avoid these nitpicks. oh, and we are starting at 200k not 250.


In reply to:

You are assuming all the kids need BOTH private school AND childcare? Surely it is either/or




fair point - but the private school number is artificially low. i do not concede


In reply to:

And the latter yields tax credits.




i am no expert, but i think we passed the "credits" exit about $125k ago.


In reply to:

SS/Medicare taxes on $250K would run less than 5% (7.65% on first 100K, and 1.45% on next 150K).




wrong. forgot that we are talking about 2 incomes here. try again.

In reply to:

[a bunch of stuff we more or less agree on]




agree


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fratboy_legend
250+ posts
06/10/08 11:59 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Now, the meat

In reply to:

...and you still have 45K at the end of the year.




well, you started with 50k more pretax and, shocker, ended up with about 50k more after expenses.

the thread title says 200k thats what i went with - i didnt read the original link.

heres the million dollar question:

you think 50k/year (or whatever it come to if taxes go up) is gonna get you "rich"?

the Equity risk premium is historically ~4% -- that is a reasonable proxy for real returns.

50k/year x 15 years earning 250k x compounding @ 4% = $1mm

now you are 65 and have 20 years to go. annuitize that paltry 1mm and get back to me on how "rich" you are in your golden years

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Hayden_Horn
25,000+ posts
06/11/08 12:04 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

no, seriously, i am contributing to my 401k (probably not enough, but baby has to eat), pay for a life insurance plan that will pay off the house if i kick off, and even contribute to the stock program in my company (they match, so it's nice - my $40/pay period isn't going anywhere else too special...), and i still feed my family, pay my bills, and sock away for retirement. no, i can't afford to sock away even 10k a year for retirement. yet. hopefully in the next 10 years i'll get to that point.

i'm not rich, but i ain't poor either, though my meager 35k a year isn't going super far. if i got laid off, i'd be proper [censored].

sure, i eat rice for lunch, and sometimes for breakfast, but...no, seriously, what are you spending your money on?




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eflow24Sponsor
5000+ posts
06/11/08 12:07 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

i'm telling you if i was bringing in 100k after taxes a year, i would be rolling in money.




It is really hard to explain hayden but you probably wouldn't. The truth of the matter is that most people, regardless of income have the same debt to income ratio. I used to think I could retire if I made $50k.

That being said, I am building a pretty big house and I have a large ranch. You know what they say about owning a ranch/farm: the only way to make a million dollars in ranching is to start with two.




The Link



The beauty of the Longhorn breed!!

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bierce
1000+ posts
06/11/08 12:12 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

But the entire premise of this thread is about whether the people whose taxes Obama might increase are to be called "rich." If you looked at who Obama says to increase the taxes on, you would see he refers to individuals making 250K, not households making 200K. So in using those figures, you fall into the Republican ploy of immediately injecting the wrong people into the analysis.

Is a 200K earning household of 4 rich? Nah, not really. They are very well put.

More to the point, they aren't the ones upon which Obama might be raising taxes, so they really shouldn't even be made a discussion point. The discussion should only begin with an individual making 250K.

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fratboy_legend
250+ posts
06/11/08 12:14 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Hayden_Horn]

In reply to:

i make less than 50k a year.




In reply to:

'm telling you if i was bringing in 100k after taxes a year, i would be rolling in money




i'm curious, what were you saying when you were making $25k?

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Ag with kids
2500+ posts
06/11/08 12:18 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

You're basically saying its impossible to raise a family of four on 100k.



I raised my 5 kids and my BIL's 4 girls on less than that..
Gas was cheaper then, though...

Now we only have the 2 youngest at home...

My bills are higher than I want them, but on a lot of the stuff, I'm stuck...

In reply to:

...and build material wealth at the same time.

that is precisely what i am saying.





I somewhat agree with this...My 401K is helping, but that's most of my savings..

In reply to:

I think being rich means you can not work and be ok




DING! DING! DING!

Rich people don't work...

They PAY people to work...

Anything they do that resembles work is just because they WANT to do it...It's fun for them...but, if they quit working for the rest of their lives, they'd still die rich....




Eric '90

The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.

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fratboy_legend
250+ posts
06/11/08 12:33 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: bierce]

In reply to:

You still live extraordinarily well (and extravagantly) and bank 28K at the end of the year.




i just noticed this nugget at the end of your post--you think this reduction (from 45k) is reasonable???? thats almost 40% of your profits.

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aldenSponsor
1000+ posts
06/11/08 12:43 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: fratboy_legend]

In reply to:

i'm curious, what were you saying when you were making $25k?



Wow. Exactly. Everyone thinks people making twice as much are rich. It feels relative. That is why we have some objective math. Granted it's more about accumulated wealth than yearly income, but calling the the top 3% "rich" shouldn't be a stretch. That just happens to be $200k. If you don't think that gives you the opportunity to be rich, then you're being subjective.

If you have an annual income of 200k, you have plenty of opportunity to accumulate wealth and be rich. If you blow your wad on stupid stuff then that's your problem. You could just as easily make up a list for 800k. Everyone needs a yacht too, right? Sure, just like every kid needs to go to private schools.






"The Texas Longhorns will be featured on Wheaties boxes. General Mills promises the special edition cereal will not crumble in big bowls." - The Onion

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Ag with kids
2500+ posts
06/11/08 12:55 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

If you looked at who Obama says to increase the taxes on, you would see he refers to individuals making 250K, not households making 200K.




He's also said that he would lift the cap on the amount of income that's taxable for SS...that starts around $97K....

He's also said he would increase the CG tax rate....that can hit ANYONE who invests in the stock market....




Eric '90

The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.

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Brubricker
1000+ posts
06/11/08 01:36 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Is it just me or have we spent this whole election listening to how critically important it is to win the white working-class vote? Do they make anywhere near $200K a year?? Hmmmm.

Is this going to be the GOP strategy? Apparently, the '08 election is all about people who've already gotten good money. Just spin your message for the folks who already make six-figures and more. This is the way to win it all, baby.

Could Republicans possibly be more clueless?

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bierce
1000+ posts
06/11/08 08:18 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Do I think increasing the tax burden on an individual making 250K a year by 17K is reasonable? Yes, particularly when I consider the existing budget deficits, which were largely created by top bracket reductions. Obama's tax "hike" restores the top marginal tax bracket at 39%.

And I am probably guilty of a gross error in assuming that tax would fall on the first 250K earned. If what is proposed is a return to 2001 tax rate on the top marginal bracket beginning at 250K for an individual (and I would assume something like 300K for married filing jointly), the real increase on that supposed family with one wage earner with a taxable income of 250K a year would be the removal of the SS cap, so he would see 6.2% of 150K go to the SS fund. A little over 9K.

Sorry, given tax levels in most developed countries and the rate on US citizens for the most of the last century, given the rationale for SS, given the enormous budget deficits created by in recent years, and given the huge outlays for defense, no, I don't see removing the 100K cap on income taxable for SS, and raising the top marginal bracket unreasonable.

Top marginal brackets over the years
The Link

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badexcuseSponsor
2500+ posts
06/11/08 08:29 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Ag with kids]

In reply to:

He's also said that he would lift the cap on the amount of income that's taxable for SS...that starts around $97K....




This would really suck. A point I enjoy each year is seeing my paycheck go up 1) when I pass the SS amount, and 2) when I max my 401(k).

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YoLaDu
500+ posts
06/11/08 08:55 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

i'm curious, what were you saying when you were making $25k?




He was probably saying, gee, if i was making 50K i would feel more comfortable, which is basically what he saying NOW, now that he is actually making 50K. (50K is a bit more than the median per household, so he basically represents an average American Family in 2008)

Now, as someone making 50K, he is saying if he made 100K he would be rolling. With hard work and a little luck some years from now, he'll makes 100K a year and when that time comes i bet he will feel like he is rolling.

If he one day is making 200K, he will be rich and more than likely will consider himself rich.

I am speaking for HaydenHorn, of course, but it sounds like he has his head screwed on straight.

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kgpSponsor
1000+ posts
06/11/08 10:03 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Rich is a relative term. Rich has no set meaning. Nor is it inherently bad or good to be rich. The primary value of the term in politics is as a way to pander to those who envy the financial situation of someone else and desire to force others to transfer wealth to them.

A good rule of thumb is that one can afford to spend 28% of gross income on house payments. Pretending for the moment (which will make 200k seem even richer than it is) that there is no mortgage insurance or property tax, this means one could afford (at 7% interest for 30 years) a $698,000 house on that salary.

How much house that buys is very different, depending on locale. Does it make one rich? Even in the cheapest real estate market, it is still a subjective term. Envy and greed are both wrong. It is wrong not to share what you are given, but it is no less wrong to force others to share more than they would.

A 699k home in San Diego
A nicer 699k home in Austin

3 bathrooms and less than 1/2 an acre sounds more like comfortable than rich to me, but it is only an opinion.





pax,
kp

Edited by kgp (06/11/08 10:06 AM)

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NEWDOC2002
1000+ posts
06/11/08 10:31 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

I don't see removing the 100K cap on income taxable for SS, and raising the top marginal bracket unreasonable.




They are already paying more precentage of their share. You just want it to be more progressive. And you cannot compare our tax structure to other countries. Our system is different.

Many on this thread come across sour grapes about people that make more than you do. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I assume you don't make more than the proposed income that would see Obama's hikes. And you can bet your ass that number will lower if he tries to implement all his "promises".


I can tell you that I delayed my income by seven frickin' years to start to get towards that bracket and I'm not real happy that Obama wants to say, "Sorry you sacrificed years and money and family time and currently bust your ass in a high stressed job but I want what you got."

I'm not bitching about even my current income and I want to have reasonable social programs. Hell, I feel "rich" but it's not because of my house, cars or income.

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bozo_casanova
5000+ posts
06/11/08 11:03 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: bozo_casanova]

As this thread hasn't covered any new ground, I'm just going to repeat my post from last night:

In reply to:

All the six figure income earners, myself included, better not pretend for a day that you aren't rich, and if you don't feel rich that's either because you have poorly set expectations or you spend your money foolishly or live in a part of the country that requires a high income, which is how you decided to spend your money, to wit:

In reply to:


i think it is not only individuals but families that make over 200k are included. regardless, 200k is not much at all if you own a home, have a couple nice cars, kids in private school...

Do you know how many Americans can actually afford the median house right now? Less than 50%. How many can actualy afford nice cars? Even less. How many can afford private school? Not many. All three? Very few. Do you know what people who can afford all three are called? "Rich".

In reply to:

I know a lot of people who make 200k, and I would not classify most of them as rich. By the time they buy their house, cars, etc well they end up in the same boat as most other people - living paycheck to paycheck. Like the guy who make 75k per year who has a decent house, decent car, bills, etc the guy with 200k buys a bit better house, car, etc but ends up in pretty much the same economic spot with regard to saving and wealth building.

That's because they bought more house, car, etc than they needed. Cry me a [censored] river.

In reply to:

If you have a couple of kids in college, a mortgage, and a couple of car payments see if you feel like a rich person.

See above

In reply to:

i make over 200k a year and i don't feel rich. i live in LA and my dream is too someday afford a house with a yard! maybe being rich is all relative?

Well, yes and no. Considering the demand for living in LA, the fact that you live there and other people who want to don't because it's too expensive is an expression of your wealth. I mean, if it wasn't worth it you'd leave, right?

In other words, I am sick and [censored] tired of listening to and reading the whining self-pitying [censored] from people who are blessed by God to make top 10% incomes and get to live in the greatest country at the safest time in history of mankind, given that your grievance is that you aren't in the top 1%. You know what? The top 1% have "generational" wealth, basically because they caught lightening in a bottle and things broke their way. Good for them. But that's not a reason for the second-luckiest people in the history of humanity (me and you) to be pissing and moaning about our economic lot. We are rich beyond the comprehension of 99.99% of all the people on Earth right now and 99.999% of all the people who have ever lived.

So shut the [censored] up and enjoy it, will you?




an add for KGP-
I understand your point, but it's indicative of what I mean- 28% of gross income is an incredible sum, and just because it's the maximum amount a responsible lender will allow doesn't make it a guildeline for the responsible consumer.
Earlier in the thread, The never disappointing Fratboy Legend said that it was impossible to build material wealth if you only make 100K per year. I would submit that the reason he views this is the absurd proposition that 28% of gross is a reasonable guideline for affordability.
The Chief reason why I am accumulating wealth is that I buy as much house as I needed and not a bit more (11% of gross), and as much car as I needed, and not a bit more. This has enabled me to have my 5 year old's college paid for, on track for a secure retirement, have two kids in private school, have only one income in the house (freeing us up to serve the community) start two businesses, etc.

This thread is one big pity party about people who want to buy 500K houses and think of themselves as working class heroes. Boo hoo.




BOOM! POW!

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washparkhornSponsor
10,000+ posts
06/11/08 11:23 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

This thread is one big pity party about people who want to buy 500K houses and think of themselves as working class heroes




As mentioned earlier in the thread - the cost of housing skews the perspective of those living in Texas.

A $500K home in Washington Park (Denver) gets you an 1100 square foot bungalow with 2 bedrooms and one bath and a crappy finished basement that may add another bedroom.

That same house in Austin is $200,000.

The same home in Arlington is $100,000.

$200,000 goes a lot further in Arlington and Austin, than it does in Denver. $200,000 in Denver goes a lot further than $200,000 in SF or NYC.

It isn't a pity party. Texas is a furnace in the summer and it dampens escalation of home prices.

And the $200,000 a year small business owner - with his/her nut - won't just accept a decrease in income if the government takes more money. The small business owner will raise prices (inflationary effect) or cut employment of those most vulnerable in our country to make up for the increase in taxes. We already see businesses tightening up in anticipation of higher taxes.

In the end, raising taxes on the "working" high wage earner will end up hurting those Obama is trying to help. They will lose jobs; they will pay more for goods.






"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body." -- attributed to C.S. Lewis

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TexasGolf
1000+ posts
06/11/08 11:24 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

not after taxes and insurance.






Hook'em Horns
'91 '92 '93 '94 '95 Golf SWC Champions

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OrangeChipper
2500+ posts
06/11/08 11:28 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Studies have PROVED that 'rich' is a moving target.

Those who make 40k a year consider anyone making over 80k rich.

Those who make over 80k a year consider anyone making over 150k rich.

The survey even had millionaire's that claimed they didn't feel stable unless they were making more than 5 mil a year. Sorry, going off memory... no linky.




The Best Is Yet To Come!!

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DigglerontheHoof
2500+ posts
06/11/08 11:51 AM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Making 200K+/year does NOT make you rich, no matter how condescendingly you put it.

It DOES put you in the top percentage of all income earners and afford you the opportunity to grow wealth, accumulate property and provide for retirement, if you're smart about it and make that amount for at least 10 years.

As HIHK said, rich means not working another day in your life while sipping Pina Colodas in Hawaii.

Some people, such as myself, have struggled for 20 + years to reach this level. Just because I'm making this money now does not mean I'm rich.

And for the record, I live in a 2K sq ft house and live way inside my means.




"At some point, I'd like to take a visit to whatever planet it is Aggies fans come from."

-Stewart Mandel in reference to aggy question of whether or not A&M would consider Steve Spurrier.

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LAktownhorn
500+ posts
06/11/08 12:08 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

in LA. i could live like a king among a bunch of shitheads for neighbors. or i can live like a normal person with roommates in a decent area. so i guess i'm rich.

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THEU
1000+ posts
06/11/08 12:12 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

There are a couple of issues I see here. One is that income is pretty subjective based on where you live. $200k goes much further in small town Texas, than in LA or NYC. Also, you are much more likely to find a job that pays $200k in LA or NYC than small town Texas. The number is a bit relative.

That being said, do you make a great income. Yes. Are you 'rich'? I would say you should be. Most people who make $200k a year should be saving about $50k a year. Most don't because they decided they could get the bigger house, 5 series BMW instead of the 3 series... etc.
The issue is NOT what we make, but rather how we spend. I know people who never made more than lower middle class incomes, but who retired millionaires, based not on what they earned, but based on what they saved.

Now I can't remember who it was who said we tax income, not savings. And I am sorry, but that is complete and utter horse [censored]. (and I don't like to curse on here). Ever heard of the 'death tax'? This taxes people who inherit the savings of people who have died. I don't care how much you have made, but that is pure and utter double taxation. The person who died was already taxed on their income, and now they are being taxed on what they saved. I call BS on that.

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afat
1000+ posts
06/11/08 12:49 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

Texas is a furnace in the summer and it dampens escalation of home prices.




This has 0 to do with it. We have a ton and a half of land that we can spread out to. We don't have to blow up mountains to build highways so we can stretch out easily. The supply of land keeps home prices down. If anything the warm weather makes it MORE attractive to live in Texas then 75% of the rest of the country.

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judgroybeanbag
1000+ posts
06/11/08 01:09 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

Most people who make $200k a year should be saving about $50k a year.




I'm saving $40K per year on half that, and have managed to pay off all my debts except a car payment, including 23 acres I have complete equity in. And save $200K in retirement. That's with a wife and 2 kids at home too.

So it can be done, just depends on your values. If someone doesn't want to live the same way I do, that's fine, but I have no sympathy for whining about living paycheck to paycheck. It's kind of like the consumer version of the ant and the grasshopper.

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OrangeChipper
2500+ posts
06/11/08 01:31 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Referring to my earlier post... NO ONE thinks they are rich. Its a movable target so to speak.

So when a politician says "I will tax the rich" No one thinks, "Good he must be talking about me."

That's why they say it all the time.




The Best Is Yet To Come!!

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bozo_casanova
5000+ posts
06/11/08 01:43 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: washparkhorn]

Washpark

In reply to:

As mentioned earlier in the thread - the cost of housing skews the perspective of those living in Texas.


No, I think the cost of housing is irrationally high here as well (and beyond my opinion, historically high to an unprecedented degree), driven by irresponsible and unsustainable attitudes about debt and a widespread adoption of the greater fool theory as a long term investment strategy.

This stuff is driven by people's choices. Nobody held a gun to anybody's head and forced them to live in Washington Park or SF or LA or Austin or anywhere.
In reply to:

And the $200,000 a year small business owner - with his/her nut - won't just accept a decrease in income if the government takes more money. The small business owner will raise prices (inflationary effect) or cut employment of those most vulnerable in our country to make up for the increase in taxes. We already see businesses tightening up in anticipation of higher taxes.


Applesauce. Imagine the horror of going back to the tax structure we had in the 1990's.

LAktownhorn
In reply to:

in LA. i could live like a king among a bunch of shitheads for neighbors. or i can live like a normal person with roommates in a decent area. so i guess i'm rich.


This is the truth. You're rich if you feel rich. 200K in income per year doesn't make you rich, but it puts you in a better position to be rich than 95% of the people in this country.
And if you can't figure out how to live richly at 200K, that's your problem.




BOOM! POW!

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Bubba Don
500+ posts
06/11/08 01:48 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

"Your values " can also mean something different in terms of how much you can save and not save.

My wife and I could have saved a lot more money for ourselves personally and really be on easy street. But we decided life was too short and that we ought to use our good health and decent income to help as many people as possible.

We give away a lot of money to charity, church, individuals that we know are in difficult situations, etc. We easily give away $20-25,000 a year on a combined income of about $200,000.

We have also decided to take care of our parents as they have aged in our own home rather than putting them in a nursing home.

Our savings account could easily have $400,000 to $500,000 or so more than we have now over our past 20 years of marriage, but we decided that some things were more important.

I don't feel rich at all. We live in a house we bought 20 years ago for $125,000 though we could have easily afforded an upgrade. Both of us drive cars with over 100,000 miles. We don't have a boat, we don't go on trips, we send our kids to public school, we rarily go out to events. Our only vice is going to UT football, baseball, and basketball games.

If the government chooses to tax us more we will of course keep on trying to give but it would certainly make it more challenging.

Hook em

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bozo_casanova
5000+ posts
06/11/08 01:53 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Bubba Don]

Bubba Don,

You take care of your parents, and give $25K annually to charity and you don't feel rich? How could you be any richer?





BOOM! POW!

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LAktownhorn
500+ posts
06/11/08 01:56 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

This stuff is driven by people's choices. Nobody held a gun to anybody's head and forced them to live in Washington Park or SF or LA or Austin or anywhere.




i work in entertainment. there is no place on earth that would pay me what LA pays me. i have no other skills. i like what i do and i'm good at what i do b/c i want to do it. so i could move to dallas and do what? i def would not be rich.

like i said being rich is relative. bozo, you make over 200k and have 2 business, house, car. and i guess you live in texas? you must feel rich. i have none of that. so i don't feel rich.


i'm doing well saving for retirement. but that doesn't make me feel rich either.

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bozo_casanova
5000+ posts
06/11/08 02:04 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: LAktownhorn]

Do you like working in entertainment?

EDIT:

In reply to:

like i said being rich is relative. bozo, you make over 200k and have 2 business, house, car. and i guess you live in texas? you must feel rich. i have none of that. so i don't feel rich.


I don't make over 200K, I make substantially under it. I have a good job (for the moment, anyway) that enabled me to start a couple businesses that don't pay me anything yet but aren't costing me anything at this point either. I have a house that I could afford on half my salary and our cars get us where we need to go. My children are happy, healthy and well cared for. I'm active in my community and get to give a little something away. Maybe someday I'll be able to give a lot away, depending on how things go, or maybe go back to school or teach or write full time. For now I work my ass off, but everybody works their asses off, and most people work just as hard for a lot less.
What more could I ask for? I'm very. very rich.

You get to work in entertainment in one of the most fabulous places on earth. Do you realize what a dream that is for a lot of people? You get to live with your people whose company you enjoy? I mean, how much better could things be?




BOOM! POW!

Edited by bozo_casanova (06/11/08 02:26 PM)

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washparkhornSponsor
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06/11/08 02:19 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: bozo_casanova]

In reply to:

Imagine the horror of going back to the tax structure we had in the 1990's.




And the internet bubble, and it bursting, then the housing bubble, and it bursting . . .

In reply to:

No, I think the cost of housing is irrationally high here as well (and beyond my opinion, historically high to an unprecedented degree), driven by irresponsible and unsustainable attitudes about debt and a widespread adoption of the greater fool theory as a long term investment strategy.




No one forces you to live in the Austin area. Move to Grand Praire.

In reply to:

his stuff is driven by people's choices. Nobody held a gun to anybody's head and forced them to live in Washington Park or SF or LA




Ahh . . . the great leveling. What's next - we all live in those superneat Eastern Bloc apartment towers like rats?

What is missing from this whole equation is I get to choose what I do with the money I earned. You have your opinions on what I should do with my money or what the government should do with my money. Frankly, it isn't your money and how you choose to live your life is your choice. I don't particularly care for the busybodies who tell me my vehicle is too large or my house is too big. It is my money and it is my life. I think I have a better perspective on the needs/wants/desires of my family than you do. And even if you do have some wisdom that might be helpful, mind you own [censored] business (with all due respect).

Leveling should be the bane of your existence. And if it isn't, you are lying to yourself, a [censored] hypocrite or Mother Theresa, with all due respect.








"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body." -- attributed to C.S. Lewis

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sak
1000+ posts
06/11/08 02:23 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

Again, the point is that an AGI of 200k makes you a top 3% earner. I repeat, TOP 3%. If one cannot live a nice life being in the top 3% AGI, then either you are extravagant or our nation sucks.

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judgroybeanbag
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06/11/08 02:28 PM
Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: Longhorn_Fan68]

In reply to:

And the internet bubble, and it bursting, then the housing bubble, and it bursting .




I'd be interested to hear what the tax structure had to do with either of those problems.

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washparkhornSponsor
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Re: people who make $200k are not rich [re: judgroybeanbag]

In reply to:

I'd be interested to hear what the tax structure had to do with either of those problems.




Fake money. Tax revenue on fake money. The structure was irrelevant. The differences in the tax structure were irrelevant. Pop the bubble and you don't replace the revenue by increasing tax. That causes a contraction. Contraction causes loss of jobs and increased loss in revenue.




"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body." -- attributed to C.S. Lewis

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[re: washparkhorn]

Edited by bozo_casanova (06/11/08 02:51 PM)

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Edited by washparkhorn (06/11/08 03:09 PM)

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Edited by fratboy_legend (06/12/08 10:08 AM)

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