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   >> West Mall

Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (show all)   Rate thread Print Thread
Bevo Incognito
5000+ posts
02/11/11 11:42 AM
Why are Catholic Schools better?

Tucker Carlson weighs in:

The Link




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general35
5000+ posts
02/11/11 11:48 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

there is absolutely no correlation between the amount of money you spend on schools and performance. the catholic school is there for the best interest of the child and to educate. the public school is there for the best interest of the teachers union and who can get the most money. they also have good athletic programs, jesuit in both dallas and houston have excellent sports programs and compete at the 5a level.

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Oilfield
5000+ posts
02/11/11 01:07 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

The biggest difference IMO (Strake Jesuit man here) is that parents of Catholic School students are paying significant money to send their kids to school there, so you can be sure they care about the kids' education. In public schools where the parents are highly engaged kids in general do quite well also. The biggest problems come when the parents are not involved at all. In general trying to teach those kids is a losing battle. It is not about money but about parent involvement and setting high expectation levels for the students.




America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. -- Abraham Lincoln

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allwhetherHorn
100+ posts
02/11/11 01:21 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Oilfield]

^^^^
That's the one. It's all about the expectations of the parents (foremost) and teachers (secondarily).

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Ag with kids
5000+ posts
02/11/11 01:23 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

Another thing is that Catholic schools don't have to take all comers AND can kick kids out quite easily if they become problems...

Public schools do not have that luxury...




Eric '90

The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.

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YoLaDu
5000+ posts
02/11/11 01:28 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

In reply to:

there is absolutely no correlation between the amount of money you spend on schools and performance.


You should tell that to St. Andrews Private School - damn! $20,000.00 a year, for a 9th grader!?! Why would someone pay that if their taxes could pay for thier 9th grader at a public school that spends about $5, 000 per student? It's obvious money doesn't make a difference, right?

wait, they tout their students average SAT scores vs. AISD's.. guess who has better scores.

Public schools can't refuse kids with learning disabilities and less than ideal home environments. Private school success come in large part due to the amount of money they spend and the students they choose to teach.

If "there is absolutely no correlation between the amount of money you spend on schools and performance" then why do parents in upper middle class neighborhoods raise a stink about Robin Hood?





"Writing songs is like trying to squeeze a watermelon out of your ass. And you would think after having done it hundreds of times, the aperture would get wider and they'd just sort of start falling out of you. But it doesn't. - Nick Cave on songwriting

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HornsForever'93
1000+ posts
02/11/11 01:41 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

Best interest of the tacher union? I think your losing it

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general35
5000+ posts
02/11/11 01:50 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

You should tell that to St. Andrews Private School - damn! $20,000.00 a year, for a 9th grader!?!
_________________________________________________

The argument in this thread is catholic schools v. public because catholic schools spend less on students than public. $5,000 a year is pretty cheap for public, most school districts spend close to 10k per student and public schools in some areas spend close to 20k per student. if we are talking elite private schools that is different because kids have to have the iq to get in, not just money. not sure about st. stevens in austin, maybe they are just all rich dumb kids. austin is different too because they have one of the best public school systems in the country. houston, fw, dallas, and san antonio all suck balls. you not only have to worry about your kids education but safety, which is a shame but the result of an entitlement and an institution that is not allowed to discipline the trouble makers.

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buckhorn
2500+ posts
02/11/11 01:53 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

I have a kid in private school with a loose religious affiliation. They never stop asking for money and the parents are hovering around the place like flies. Money, the educational background of the the parents, along with the parental involvement, all sort of go together to make a good school. It does help that private schools are more selective both academically and financially (your chances of having educated parents who know how successful education works rises with income levels, etc.).

I have just placed a daughter in UT Elementary, a public charter here in Austin. The student makeup is a bit different (more latino faces) but there are parents all over the place there, as well, and that is, in my opinion, partly due to the fact that getting into the school is a task, something that has to be planned.

The parents are much more important that the teachers. It is so important for the kids to be able to absorb the possibilities that are around them and to be informed of the work that must be done in order to attain lofty heights. Then you can heap the expectations on and the kids can flourish.

But money does matter, though any budget can be defeated by indifference, chaos in the home, dysfunctional administration, etc.

I have attended Montessori schools and so have my kids. I think they provided some good first steps, but I have at all times had inside info on the involved schools and those places were rife with bad teachers (some of whom owed their green cards to the employer), sometimes harsh discipline, and other corruptions (a teacher who called 911 because one student had stuffed gravel down another's throat, causing the cessation of breathing for 20 seconds, was roundly reprimanded and accused of subterfuge because she did not first ask permission for the call, they constantly skrimped on snacks and teacher pay while the 'directors' tooled around in Mercedes Benz's).

Money counts.

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Satchel
1000+ posts
02/11/11 01:59 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

Went to Catholic schools for 12 years. Given the choice, I'd do it all over again.Not only did parents and teachers demand a lot, you were conditioned to demand quite a bit of yourself.

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general35
5000+ posts
02/11/11 02:04 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

parental involvement is the key to this obviously. we need major reform. education is becoming rediculously expensive and a lot of the costs are associated with feeding children and their families, litigation, athletic and union costs, everything but education. Moreover, as i stated in the other post, there are far too many troublemakers in some of these schools. public education should be run with elements of a privilege, not just an entitlement. kids should be forced to perform. parents should not be able to sue over bad grades or not being promoted on to the next grade. kids should be expelled for bad or disruptive behavior. allow certain schools to be built that are semi-private, like for instance, public pre-school. allow parents to pay for a better school with advanced classes that is supplemented by the government. education is a frustrating entitlement because it is designed to better society but it is not treated that way.

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Bluff Horn
250+ posts
02/11/11 03:03 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

I attended public school in rural E. Texas. I have many friends from different stages of my life that attended private school, and my career and life are at least on par with theirs.

Many, many factors go into a successful education. I happen to belive you can get a fine education in public if you and your parents are willing to engage the system. Nothing in life is perfect.

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allwhetherHorn
100+ posts
02/11/11 03:16 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: general35]

Higher education is beoming ridicuously expensive (far outpacing inflation) - a big factor is the tax credits. While these sound good in theory, all they do is drive up the price (not cost) of education.
The Link

In reply to:

public education should be run with elements of a privilege, not just an entitlement



But the fact is that it is an entitlement, and you can't impose those standards at public schools. Where else would those kids go? Besides try to expel the kids and you'll get sued - doncha know Johnny has ADHD. And there had better not be a disparate impact!

Regarding the comments on the correlation between the amount of money spent and performance, I'd say there's little. I live in Louisville, KY and the school that has the top test scores is a Classical Christian Latin school, where the tuition is only $5,620 compared to other private schools that charge as much as $18,750. Again, it's about expectations of the parents, teachers and students. Those with high expectations will choose a rigorous school and put in the work to achieve the results. And by the way, the Latin school only has class 4 days per week.
The Link

And anyone that's spending $20K + for a high school education probably doesn't care about the price and is more concerned about the image of the "prestegious" school.

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buckhorn
2500+ posts
02/11/11 03:43 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

In reply to:

Regarding the comments on the correlation between the amount of money spent and performance, I'd say there's little.




Perhaps this is true when the difference is between sets of relatively expensive tuition-based educations wherein both schools are predominately made up of fairly well-off, educationally engaged parents. But if the general gap between public schools in poor areas and those in well-off areas, not to mention tuition-based schools, is considered, I think that expenditure is likely to make some difference.

Discipline needs to be amped up in alot of instances. We are entrusting the care and development of our children to the schools, so the schools should have a fair amount of leeway to discipline, hold back, or otherwise handle recalcitrant children.

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allwhetherHorn
250+ posts
02/11/11 04:44 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: buckhorn]

In 2008, Washington DC public schools spent about $24,600 per pupil (about $10,000 more than the average private school). The Link

I don't think I need a link to prove that the public schools in Washington DC are about the worst in the country.

Yes, the level of funding makes some difference, but the impact is small. Unfortunately, the most important factors to student success are outside the school walls.

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buckhorn
2500+ posts
02/11/11 05:30 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

I get your point allwheth

I think we agree that there are aspects of a good education that are enhanced by expenditures and that there are problems that undermine the effort to impart/receive a good education that cannot be solved by spending money. Binding a book in gold won't help the illiterate grasp the tome's meaning.

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Longhorny630
1000+ posts
02/11/11 05:46 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

I think everybody is forgetting the most obvious reason. All the students are terrified of getting in trouble and being sent to the Priest's office. And I'm guessing football isn't being considered as any of these studies, since Notre Dame is evidence Catholic schools are not better.




When I grow up, I'm going to Bovine University.

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BigWill
10,000+ posts
02/11/11 08:21 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

don't the catholic schools essentially get free labor?

aren't many/most of the instructors nuns or priests? What are they paid? Teachers don't make a lot, but I'll bet they make more than nuns.

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rickysrun
2500+ posts
02/12/11 07:03 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

Slumber parties with the priest?

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greggym
2500+ posts
02/12/11 08:07 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

I spent 20 years as a volunteer teacher in the houston school system.Taught over a thousand kids.Most of the time,I taught in public schools but also in a couple of private schools.I focused on teaching minority kids whenever possible.

Those kids that had parental involvement always achieved more than those that didn't whether it was public school or private school.As a whole,the kids at the private schools were smarter but individually.it didn't matter whether it was public or private.

And yes,the teachers union not the teachers are a cancer on the system.

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Larry T. Spider
1000+ posts
02/12/11 02:55 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

General - I would love to see the numbers saying that schools are spending more than 10k per student. A quick search showed me that hisd is spending an average of 5600 per student per year. That includes all the kids with behavior problems and special needs that many private schools don't deal with. My district would kill for the amount of funding that hisd gets.

Edit- I'm now looking at numbers saying that Texas spends an avg of 11500 per student. The numbers are all over the place. Some districts are spending 17000 per student while others are spending under 5k.




I f-ing hate OU.

Edited by Larry T. Spider (02/12/11 03:03 PM)

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yelladawgdem
1000+ posts
02/12/11 06:42 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

I remember after losing the 1971 Cotton Bowl the joke was as they took collection, the Priest said "Hail Mary full of Grace; We beat Texas and took first place." And when the collection was presented at the alter there were 100's of pieces of paper printed "Screw you Irish, your plate is bare".

I had become a Catholic 2 years earlier and 40 years later I am still a firm believer in the bare plate theory. Even when they had that high school coach and Jimmy Johnson laid 57 on them at the old Orange Bowl Stadium in the 80s.




S/Sgt. Lloyd Gene Austin
Viet Nam
AR COMM
My big brother
KIA 18 Aug 69

Support Our Troops.
Bring them home ALIVE....NOW!!!

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zzzz
10,000+ posts
02/13/11 12:39 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

In reply to:

If "there is absolutely no correlation between the amount of money you spend on schools and performance" then why do parents in upper middle class neighborhoods raise a stink about Robin Hood?


Because you're taking their money as a result of mistakenly believing that income disparity explains the difference in academic performance. You're also penalizing them for their success.

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Coelacanth
2500+ posts
02/13/11 06:40 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

The problem with doing research on education is that it's impossible to isolate for any one variable. Too many moving parts in the machine.

Learning will always be a product of the talent and energy that teachers and students bring with them into the classroom. That was true during the days of the one room schoolhouse, and it's true now.

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general35
5000+ posts
02/13/11 02:39 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

A quick search showed me that hisd is spending an average of 5600 per student per year.
__________________________________________________

hisd spends about 8000 per student and the superintendant gets paid about as much as the president of the united states.

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Larry T. Spider
1000+ posts
02/13/11 07:12 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: general35]

The average non-sectarian private school in the us costs over 17000 a year, more than double what hisd spends. They get to pick and choose their students, draw from involved wealthy parents, have low class sizes, and are able to kick out the behavior problems. I'm really shocked that they have better test scores.

Cost




I f-ing hate OU.

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majorwhiteapples
2500+ posts
02/13/11 07:20 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

1.) First and Foremost-What the student puts into his education is what they get out of it. Regardless of Private or Public.

2.) After number 1, by a distant second is Family environment and how they interact with the kids education.

These two things are 80% of a kids education, the rest is immaterial.

The amount of money spent on education is a huge scheme that is way out of control.

Should I go into the LAISD and their new High Schools?

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Larry T. Spider
1000+ posts
02/13/11 07:43 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: majorwhiteapples]

Why are these private schools charging so much if the amount that they spend irrelevant? They usually get motivated kids from good homes, what's with the prices? Btw, I agree with what you are saying to a large degree. My argument is that if spending is out of control on the public side, it's even worse on the private side.




I f-ing hate OU.

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majorwhiteapples
2500+ posts
02/13/11 08:28 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

Private side it private, if they want to pay it fine, let them. I don't have a problem with it, I kinda look at it like a family living in Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, El Paso, or Austin ISD, I would either move to a better school district out of town or send my kid to private school. I would not put my kid in one of those school districts.

I am confident my kid and his family will provide a solid environment for them to succeed and now I want to insure that we are getting the most out of the remaining 20%.

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YoLaDu
5000+ posts
02/13/11 09:41 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

how many parents pull their kids out of the public school system and put them in private schools that spend less per child than that public school their child could be attending?

Not many i would guess.

Those same parents probably think that money and performance has no correlation when it comes to teaching; without a blink of an eye or any reflection whatsoever.




"Writing songs is like trying to squeeze a watermelon out of your ass. And you would think after having done it hundreds of times, the aperture would get wider and they'd just sort of start falling out of you. But it doesn't. - Nick Cave on songwriting

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Perham1
5000+ posts
02/14/11 06:45 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: YoLaDu]

Better than what? The average public school?

Catholic schools are not better than my local public high school. In fact, kids that can't cut it at my local high school are usually the ones who go to Strake.




I have the simplest tastes. I am always satisfied with the best. Oscar Wilde

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HornsTrue
250+ posts
02/14/11 10:15 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

Couple of things. I went to private Catholic school and send my kids to the same school.

The "price" of tuition is not the same as what each school spends as a "cost" per child to educate them.

Schools like St. Stephens and St. Andrews are not Catholic, but Christian. They are the most expensive schools in the Austin area. The school I send my kids to is about average at under $6K per year. Most Catholic schools no longer use nuns and priests to teach, except for religion class. Ours doesn't and hasn't for a long time.

Involved parents, smaller teacher to kid ratios, and lack of a disruptive environment lead to an increased probability that my child will maximize his learning. Also, my wife and I value the Catholic based education where all of the school's values and principles are rooted in our Catholic/Christian beliefs and values. However, the fact that we go to Church every week as a family is very important as well.

I believe success in school is on the parents and the child, and to a smaller extent the teacher. I think a kid can excel in public school just as easily as in private. However, there is a higher ratio of success in private school because there are less distractions and a higher level of family involvement. Does that make the school better? Probably not. But it does likely mean that the quality of kids going to the school are better as a whole.

It's like the difference between a recreational team where you inherit your roster and a select team where you can choose more advanced players. Your result is better from the start.




"Yes it really does bother me... I've got one of the best jobs in the country. Yeah, I grew up in North Carolina, but I have no desire to coach in the Atlantic Coast Conference or anywhere else other than Texas."-Rick Barnes

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Perham1
5000+ posts
02/14/11 10:21 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: HornsTrue]

Involved parents....

This is the biggest factor in school and student success.

Nothing else even comes close. Not $ per student, not faculty:student ratios, nothing.




I have the simplest tastes. I am always satisfied with the best. Oscar Wilde

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general35
5000+ posts
02/14/11 10:21 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

In fact, kids that can't cut it at my local high school are usually the ones who go to Strake.
__________________________________________________

there is a waiting list a mile long at strake and you cant get in realistically unless you are catholic so i find that hard to believe. standardized tests are easy anyway. there shouldnt be that much of a difference between public or private. the difference is in work ethic and other variables such as high math and writing skills. talk to anyone that works in college counseling or admissions at a university and there is a huge difference in the skill sets between public and private educated kids.

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Satchel
1000+ posts
02/14/11 10:29 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

Just as there are good and bad publics, there are good and bad privates.

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Larry T. Spider
1000+ posts
02/14/11 10:34 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: general35]

People keep listing all of these important factors such as work ethic, involved parents, etc. These are clearly qualities present in almost every successful child. I don't think anybody disputes this. So then, why are private schools(which are full of these kids), spending so much money?

Either:
1. They think they have some important things to spend money on that improves the quality of education.

or

2. They like throwing money away on a larger scale than public schools.

My guess is that parents and motivated kids are the most important factors in education. I am also guessing that a quality education is more expensive (public or private) than many on here are willing to admit.




I f-ing hate OU.

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general35
5000+ posts
02/14/11 10:44 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

My guess is that parents and motivated kids are the most important factors in education. I am also guessing that a quality education is more expensive (public or private) than many on here are willing to admit.
__________________________________________________

doesnt have to be, i know a kid that was home schooled that got into harvard.

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Dionysus
2500+ posts
02/14/11 10:56 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

In reply to:

i know a kid that was home schooled that got into harvard.



It's strictly anecdotal, but I've heard that many colleges are taking a harder look at home-schooled kids than they used to, and often seeing some very impressive results. My two kids home-school and they are thriving. Whatever the approach, I am convinced that parents are the most important factor. If we can't instill the importance of learning and critical thinking by our own example at home, how do we expect a third party to produce it?

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Larry T. Spider
1000+ posts
02/14/11 11:03 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Dionysus]

So, the private schools are throwing away money on things that don't improve the quality of education. Seems like a poor business model.




I f-ing hate OU.

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HornsTrue
250+ posts
02/14/11 11:08 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

Larry T Spider, where do you get that private schools are "spending so much money?"

There is a difference between the price of a private school and that school's "cost" to educate each child. Tuition does not equal spending per child.

Schools with higher tuition have a more affluent membership with nicer facilities, better technology, well-paid specific athletic coaching, etc.




"Yes it really does bother me... I've got one of the best jobs in the country. Yeah, I grew up in North Carolina, but I have no desire to coach in the Atlantic Coast Conference or anywhere else other than Texas."-Rick Barnes

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Larry T. Spider
1000+ posts
02/14/11 11:30 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: HornsTrue]

I have to work right now but later I'll repost the link from the top of the page saying that the average non-secular private school costs 17k a year. Assuming that they spend most of that on educating the kids, its about double what Texas public schools are spending. Religious schools are cheaper but I'm guessing that the church is paying for some of the cost (just a guess).




I f-ing hate OU.

Edited by Larry T. Spider (02/14/11 11:59 AM)

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ToxicShock
500+ posts
02/14/11 11:31 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

I think some are mistakenly lumping catholic schools in with all private schools. First off, part of the reason that catholic schools are cheaper is that they are at least partially funded by the diocese. This helps defray costs and makes it a no brainer for me to send my daughters to catholic elementary school for $5600 this year (it goes up to $6000 next year). Also, additional kids are cheaper. I also get the feeling that catholic schools spend more time on religious aspects of education than some of the other private schools (for sure schools like St. Marks, ESD and Parrish in Dallas). Like Carlson said in the video, there is a lot of discipline and self control preached in catholic religious education.

But the bottom line, again, is that it is all about parental involvement. My wife was on about 4 different committees with volunteer efforts for the school in order to demonstrate her desire to get our kids in. You kind of need to show how much you plan to get involved with the school to impress the admissions committee. You can't just decide that you don't like public school and decide to send your kid to catholic school (esp. if you aren't catholic and aren't a member of the parish).

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Perham1
5000+ posts
02/14/11 12:51 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: general35]

there is a waiting list a mile long at strake and you cant get in realistically unless you are catholic so i find that hard to believe.

Frankly, I don't care what you find hard to believe. From my admittedly limited sample, the students I know who have left my local high to attend Strake have done so to get more individualized attention. But then, my local high school is one of the best in the state, if not nation. I'm not saying that Strake isn't good, only that my local high school is better.

You are generalizing. I am talking about a specific school.




I have the simplest tastes. I am always satisfied with the best. Oscar Wilde

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Larry T. Spider
1000+ posts
02/14/11 02:46 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Perham1]

Average Private School Tuition: 2007-08
All Levels
All Schools $8,549
Catholic $6,018
Other Religious $7,117
Non-Sectarian $17,316
Source: Table 59, Digest of Education Statistics 2009, National Center for Education Statistics.link




I f-ing hate OU.

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msdw24
2500+ posts
02/14/11 04:44 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

In reply to:

The biggest problems come when the parents are not involved at all.



The thread could have ended with this statement!!




that dude would/could eat 40 boiled eggs just to do it, he crazy fresh, stupid cool, or whatever the term for a badass nowadays is. (GHOST HORN)

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Bevo Incognito
5000+ posts
02/14/11 04:54 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

In reply to:

The problem with doing research on education is that it's impossible to isolate for any one variable.






And yet,we've isolated the "Catholic variable" and found that, across socioeconomic and cultural boundaries and allowing for all other variables, this variable correlates to superior academic performance.




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abqhornfan
100+ posts
02/15/11 06:39 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

In reply to:

And yet,we've isolated the "Catholic variable" and found that, across socioeconomic and cultural boundaries and allowing for all other variables, this variable correlates to superior academic performance.




The study pitting Catholic schools against public schools did not control for socioeconomic status/background.

link

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pasotex
2500+ posts
02/15/11 07:02 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

In reply to:

"Overall," the study said, "demographic differences between students in public and private schools more than account for the relatively high raw scores of private schools. Indeed, after controlling for these differences, the presumably advantageous private school effect disappears, and even reverses in most cases."


Nice link




Hook 'em!

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allwhetherHorn
250+ posts
02/15/11 07:56 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: pasotex]

Controlling for this and controlling for that is all well and good if you're an academic. But if you're a parent that wants to provide your child with the best educational opportunity (and you have the finanical flexibility), are you going to send them to the local public school or a private school?

To answer the question, why private (or Catholic) schools GENERALLY outperform public schools - parental involvement and expectations. Control for that, and I doubt there's much difference in the results from any school. And that seems to be the consensus from this thread.

When the Obamas and Clintons moved to DC, they both chose to send their kids to Sidwell Friends (annual tuition = $32k) as opposed to the public school. Wonder why?

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pasotex
2500+ posts
02/15/11 08:54 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

While there are situations where a private or Catholic school makes sense, the title of the thread contained an empirically false assumption. The difference in test scores is attributable to the socio-economic make up of the kids and as far as actual performance goes, Catholic school perform slghtly worse on average when adjusted for this factor.




Hook 'em!

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Hornius EmeritusSponsor
10,000+ posts
02/15/11 08:59 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

This has to factor into the equation:


"The average young person racks up 10,000 hours of gaming by age of 21. That's almost exactly as much time as they spend in a classroom during all of middle school and high school if they have perfect attendance."

Jane McGonigal, in a recent article on video games




See my Photographs and Essays of Texas:

The Link






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bronco
1000+ posts
02/15/11 09:41 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

larryT- Not sure what you are trying to argue? The following link shows that public schools, certainly on average, spend a lot more per kid than private schools. From the link:

In reply to:

To put public school spending in perspective, we compare it to estimated total expenditures in local private schools. We find that, in the areas studied, public schools are spending 93 percent more than the estimated median private school.



The Link
I think the point above was that we keep saying the issues with public schools is a lack of funding. While this link seems to show a school model that works better for less money spent per student. I think it is probably a [censored] stat, so take it for what it is.

I tend to very much disagree with those that say parental involvement is the biggest single factor. Obviously abusive parents or instable home life settings for younger kids etc are handicaps that are hard to overcome. However, I think the single biggest ingredient is the teachers. Motivated, inspirational teachers that make learning fun and create an environment that is conducive to learning is the key. Not just the teachers as the administrators have to do their part to support the teachers.

There are countless examples of schools in poor areas that consistently excel. When you visit those schools you encounter an atmosphere that is markedly different from underperforming schools.

I agree completely that the unions are a large part of the problem. It is simply amazing to me that every single person in America would agree that education is a very important part of our society and then the folks that we entrust this important task to can not be fired for incompetence.

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allwhetherHorn
250+ posts
02/15/11 09:49 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: pasotex]

At the risk of being a pedant, no, the title is not empirically false, but it is ambiguous. What does it mean to be better? I think the general understanding of the question is Why do they have better test scores? And for the record, I wouldn't call a school better just because of it's test scores. But it's a simple proxy for this discussion.

All that being said, private (or Catholic) schools produce higher test scores - the REASON may be socioeconomic factors, or other (small class size, self-selecting samples, student goals), but the fact remains that students score higher in private schools than public. (Sorry for conflating Catholic and private schools - for purposes of this discussion, I don't see a reason to distinguish them.)

According to a NEAP study in 2006... In both reading and mathematics, analyses employing unadjusted NAEP scores indicated that the average private school mean score was higher than the average public school mean score, and the difference was statistically significant. The Link

Let me try to use a sports analogy here (because they're the best)... You have two teams coaced by two coaches with the same background/experience: Team 1 is composed of players whose parents are fully committed to the team (they will purchase the necessary equipment, ensure their child is practicing at home, and make it to pracice on time) and the kids want to play for that team. Team 2 is composed of players whose parents are apathetic (don't get the kids to practice on time, don't purchase the right equipment and don't care if the kids practice on their own) and the kids would rather be doing something else.

If given the choice, which team would you choose? It's not to say that coach 1 is better than coach 2, but the environment for success is better for coach 1. Now controlling for all those variables, there's no difference of course. But in the real world, we don't control for socioeconomic factors, and have to make decisions based on all the factors available.

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Larry T. Spider
1000+ posts
02/15/11 10:39 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: bronco]

Bronco - My only argument in all of this goes back to this statement from General, which was the second post in the thread.

In reply to:

there is absolutely no correlation between the amount of money you spend on schools and performance.




Here is my only argument: Why are private schools charging on average over 17k a year (that they presumably spend on children) if money makes no difference? This is more than double the average of HISD.

Please note:
1. I am using non-secular private schools for the 17k figure because many churches pick up part of the tab for their schools thus making tuition a tricky number to use for how much they spend on average.

2. I am not disputing that private schools produce better test scores - I am only talking about why private schools spend so much money. I am not saying that you shouldn't send your kids to private schools, I know of plenty that are great. I would actually suggest putting your kid in private school if you live in an area with bad public schools.

3. I am not saying that there are not factors more important than money, there are clearly dozens.

4. Your link to the cato institue appears to be using numbers from the five largest metro areas only and DC. This is hardly a representation of the average school district. As mentioned above, HISD spends about 8k per student. DC spends about 27k per student, which is crazy, and throws off the average if they are only including five or six metro areas.

The closes thing that I got to an answer on why private schools spend so much money was from majorwhiteapples stating that he didn't care how much they spent. I don't care either, I just want to know why they do.





I f-ing hate OU.

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Perham1
5000+ posts
02/15/11 10:49 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Larry T. Spider]

Private schools produce better results than do public schools, on the average, because parents who send their children to private schools are, again on the average, more committed to the success of their child's education.

Whether there is "absolutely no correlation" between money spent and outcomes is not really worth examining. There may be correlation but what we really want to see is causation. I would imagine that there is some correlation between money spent and outcomes but so what? Who really cares about correlation?

Parental involvement and commitment is the key.




I have the simplest tastes. I am always satisfied with the best. Oscar Wilde

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greggym
2500+ posts
02/15/11 11:00 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

perham, i agree but maybe a better way than using the word committed might be that they have the ability to help their kids become more succcessful.

Just my .02

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Bevo Incognito
5000+ posts
02/15/11 11:15 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

In reply to:

Here is my only argument: Why are private schools charging on average over 17k a year (that they presumably spend on children) if money makes no difference? This is more than double the average of HISD.





Because they can?






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Larry T. Spider
1000+ posts
02/15/11 12:47 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

or because they see a return on the money spent.




I f-ing hate OU.

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bullzak
5000+ posts
02/15/11 04:29 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

I am living this nightmare right now in Chicago.

The average spent for students here is $11,500/year. The taxes are high. The CPS has a $5 billion budget.

What is the return on this significant investment? Not much. The number of HS freshmen in CPS who graduate from college by the age of 25 is SIX percent.

Catholic schools charge that kind of money because the default position of sending your kids into the public schools is not an option.

Catholic schools are better because the bar is set very low. Are they great? I dont know.

Oh, BTW Chicago public school teachers average 75k/year and have the shortest school day in the country [1:45] and fewest number of days in session in the country.

But hey, its all about the kids.

One more time. Show me ANY entity on the face of the earth with a long established workers union and I will show you an entity that is [censored] up beyond repair.

Combine that with the obvious socioeconomic issues at the household level and you have America headed down a bad road and nobody gives a [censored].

The constituencies are so dug in you cant even have a meaningful conversation about the issues.

Hell you cant even fire convicted sex offender teachers in NY and LA. In my experience, you want movement, you have to have accountability first. No union wants that.




"WE'RE READY" --DKR

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Larry T. Spider
1000+ posts
02/15/11 04:51 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

In reply to:

Hell you cant even fire convicted sex offender teachers in NY and LA. In my experience, you want movement, you have to have accountability first. No union wants that.




You have a link about the sex offenders?




I f-ing hate OU.

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Flood
25+ posts
02/15/11 07:08 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Larry T. Spider]

Parental involvement is the biggest driver, and I think we'd all agree. The money just allows the parent more wiggle room. You don't have to be as committed a parent when the private school is spending 2X on your kid (which the parent is paying for of course). Parental involvement is more important in public, and you also tend to get less parental involvement in public.

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bullzak
5000+ posts
02/16/11 09:52 AM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Larry T. Spider]

Larry, this article speaks of allegations, not convictions, so I probably overstepped on that one.



Basic point I was making is that you cant fire a teacher in the larger school districts and it is a major contributing factor into why those schools suck [censored].

For more info, see Waiting for Superman. NY Rubber Room for bad teachers




"WE'RE READY" --DKR

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HornsTrue
250+ posts
02/16/11 01:19 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

Larry T. I say again. Just becauase school X charges 17K in tuition does not mean that is what they spend per child. They charge a market rate that has nothing to do with it.

You would have to have numbers on what they actually spend on the education of the children per child. Tuition is not that number.




"Yes it really does bother me... I've got one of the best jobs in the country. Yeah, I grew up in North Carolina, but I have no desire to coach in the Atlantic Coast Conference or anywhere else other than Texas."-Rick Barnes

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Larry T. Spider
1000+ posts
02/16/11 02:26 PM
Re: Why are Catholic Schools better? [re: Bevo Incognito]

link

This shows how much private schools are spending vs public schools in some large metro areas. Its the best that I can find right now. I'm not sure if "christian association" means they have lumped all catholic and protestant schools together. Either way, they don't seem to spend too much on each child whereas the others spend much much more than public schools. I think if the "christian association" schools had to provide bus service, special ed sevice, bilingual classrooms, and all the other things that public schools are required to, costs would be about the same or possibly more.

There are a million factors in public education that drive up the cost but we need to do a MUCH better job of getting those dollars into the classroom.

In reply to:

Of the $11,084 spent per pupil on public education in 2009, only $4,831 went for anything that could even remotely be considered "instructional" expenses as defined by the Texas Education Agency.


link




I f-ing hate OU.

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