RomaVicta
5000+ posts
01/28/07 02:46 PM
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Great post and thread. 
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GAS_Horn
100+ posts
01/28/07 04:23 PM
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This is probably way too simplistic and maybe has no bearing on our defensive play; but 30 years ago when I played defense I got pumped up seeing and hearing the dc going apeshit on the sideline (Robinson) as opposed to the dc "playing chess in the pressbox" (Chizic, as noted in a previous post). Anybody know if Mac Duff is a sideline coach? Hasn't Akina always been a sideline coach?
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Menjou
100+ posts
01/30/07 02:31 PM
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I have no idea, but just because Chizik was in the press box doesn't mean we don't have other coaches doing the pumping up. Akina is always very animated, for instance.
I've heard Mac Duff described as intense, so we'll see what actually happens there. But I agree that it sure looked liek we didn't care what was going on some of the time (Baylor and A&M)
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G-M PLATTER
25+ posts
01/31/07 09:52 AM
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Great read, now for the icing on the cake give us a preview of the scheme to look forward to with our new DC.
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1leggedduck
1000+ posts
01/31/07 12:10 PM
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Are the issues with Chizik being inflexible and tunnel-visioned something you would expect Mack to have recognized, or do you hire a DC based on his track record alone? How much second guessing should a HC do during the season? I am a Mack fan. I'm not criticizing. I just suspect Mack was relieved that Chizik was a "hot property" and moved on, and I wonder if Chizik was told that he best take the ISU job, and what would have happened if he hadn't?
Edited by 1leggedduck (01/31/07 12:11 PM)
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Laphroaig10
250+ posts
01/31/07 04:00 PM
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I think Chizik saw a great opportunity in the ISU job. They were making a commitment to winning, and would give him the resources to lure top assistants. He was able to reunite with Bolt and bring in some highly thought of young kids he'd worked with before. He'll be in a weak division, so he can make a splash early and quickly be in the running for a big time job.
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kchorn
5000+ posts
02/01/07 01:18 AM
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Menjou - appreciate your observations, which are interesting in part because of your moral certitude.
It always is interesting to call another man a "fraud" (especially behind his back) -- and particularly if he not only is successful at the national level (Gene Chizik won the Broyles Award as the outstanding assistant coach in major-college football "before" he arrived at Texas), but also is called out after he is gone from the premises.
Whatever, the evil that men do lives after them, and the good is oft interred in their bones ... so let it be with Chizik.
Here, in memoriam, is some of the information that we're burying in order to support the argument that Chizik is a "fraud" (while, according to your thesis, Greg Robinson knew what he was doing as the Horns' Defensive Coordinator):
(1) Under Greg Robinson, the Horns did not win a Conference or National title ... while we did win both with Gene Chizik on board, and were well on our way (with a less experienced team) to a second Conference title before our starting QB was injured near the end of the season.
(2) Under Greg Robinson, the Horns lost to Oklahoma ... while we were 2-0 vs. Oklahoma with Gene Chizik on board.
(3) Under Greg Robinson, the 2004 Sooners romped to 301 rushing yards (and 5.8 yards a carry as a team) vs. the Horns' defense ... while the 2005 & 2006 Sooners averaged 100 rushing yards (and 2.9 yards a carry as a team) vs. the Horns' defense.
(4) Adrian Peterson had a field day vs. Robinson's 2004 Longhorn defense -- with 225 yards rushing on 32 carries (7.0 yards per carry -- with no appreciable halftime adjustment by our defense) ... while Peterson gained 119 yards rushing on 28 carries (4.25 yards per carry) in the 2005 and 2006 games vs. Chizik's Longhorn defenses.
(5) In terms of half-time adjustments, the 2006 Horns' defense held Adrian Peterson to 38 yards rushing on 13 carries (2.9 yards per carry) with the game on the line in the second half of the 2006 RRS.
(6) In the Ohio State rematch, you inadvertently left out the fact that Tarell Brown was unexpectedly removed from the Horns' defensive secondary the week of the game. [Note: Tarell Brown was a returning senior CB who had played ahead of Aaron Ross for three consecutive Defensive Coordinators at Texas ... and Tarell generally was ranked as one of the top-five CBs in the Country going into the 2006 football season.]
(7) You decry the lack of team football-speed among our linebackers ... and then mention that a factor of relative insignificance (as compared, in your view, to our defensive schemes) was the number of injuries suffered by the Horns' fastest linebackers this past season (e.g., Drew Kelson, Roddrick Muckelroy and Sergio Kindle) ... as if that's Chizik's fault.
(8) You also seem inclined to slow-play the impact of injuries to key DL players this past season, such as DE Brian Robison and DTs Frank Okam and Derek Lokey ... as well as the nagging injuries for DBs Tarell Brown, Marcus Griffin and Michael Griffin ... in other words, at least eight (and arguably nine, if you count Kindle) of the Horns' starters on defense were either playing injured -- or were literally out of the game -- much of this past season.
(9) Assuming you are correct that Gene Chizik was a "fraud" in his two seasons as the Defensive Coordinator at Texas -- when the Horns' average final national ranking in Total Defense was No. 16, and our average final national ranking in Scoring Defense was No. 17 -- where does that leave:
(a) Bob Stoops - OU's average final national rankings for the same two seasons were No. 15 in Total Defense and No. 28 in Scoring Defense,
(b) Pete Carroll - USC's average final national rankings for the same two seasons were No. 34 in Total Defense and No. 23 in Scoring Defense, and
(c) Greg Robinson - the 2004 Horns' final national rankings in those two categories were No. 23 in Total Defense and No. 18 in Scoring Defense.
Are Stoops, Carroll and Robinson also "frauds" as defensive coaches (the area in which both Stoops and Carroll supposedly specialize)?
(10) It is interesting that the 2004 Horns yielded 320 yards a game in Total Defense, while the 2005 Horns yielded 303 yards a game in Total Defense ... and the 2006 Horns yielded 297 yards a game in Total Defense. Somehow that seems inconsistent with the deification of Greg Robinson and the vilification of Gene Chizik.
We'll see what happens with the next "fraud".
Hook 'em. 
Edited by kchorn (02/01/07 01:27 AM)
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Menjou
100+ posts
02/01/07 04:44 AM
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In reply to:
Are the issues with Chizik being inflexible and tunnel-visioned something you would expect Mack to have recognized, or do you hire a DC based on his track record alone?
I wouldn't expect Mack to see it, no. Not with how quickly the process moved, and not with Chizik's record of success. However, I expect that the opening was open longer just because of that reason. Mack took his time finding not only a good coach but a good fit this time.
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Menjou
100+ posts
02/01/07 05:36 AM
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Ah, the original sunshine pumper. Nice to have you here, Mr. kchorn.
In reply to:
It always is interesting to call another man a "fraud" (especially behind his back)
Do you know him? I would be happy to talk to him about this. I'd actually like to hear his side of the story when confronted by someone with an actual background in football, who could ask an actual question.
In reply to:
Gene Chizik won the Broyles Award as the outstanding assistant coach in major-college football "before" he arrived at Texas
Why the quotations "around" before?
In reply to:
(1) Under Greg Robinson, the Horns did not win a Conference or National title ... while we did win both with Gene Chizik on board, and were well on our way (with a less experienced team) to a second Conference title before our starting QB was injured near the end of the season.
Gene Chizik got more out of Vince Young and the OL, I guess. Can't believe I left that out. Everyone, I'm sorry I left out the Horns having one of the best offenses ever off of Chizik's resume.
In reply to:
(2) Under Greg Robinson, the Horns lost to Oklahoma ... while we were 2-0 vs. Oklahoma with Gene Chizik on board.
Under Gene Chizik, we were 1-1 vs. A&M and 0-1 vs. KSU. Under Robinson, he would slap you in the face if you told him KSU could pass for a jillion yards on him.
Also, I don't know if you've actually seen OU play in the past two seasons, but they suck.
In reply to:
(3) Under Greg Robinson, the 2004 Sooners romped to 301 rushing yards (and 5.8 yards a carry as a team) vs. the Horns' defense ... while the 2005 & 2006 Sooners averaged 100 rushing yards (and 2.9 yards a carry as a team) vs. the Horns' defense.
I must've missed the effusive praise for Greg Robinson in my post. But, since you brought him up, I notice you didn't bother to mention pass defense anywhere (remember what I said about stats? You might not, because I edited it, but the line is, smart football men use their eyes, everyone else uses statistics). Not a big picture guy, are you? Greg Robinson managed to keep his pass defense within the top 100 in the country for 100% of his time here.
If you read my post again, you'll notice that I talk about several teams other than OU, like, golly, KSU and A&M.. You'll also notice my lack of talk about the run defense this past season. It was just fine.
In reply to:
(4) Adrian Peterson had a field day vs. Robinson's 2004 Longhorn defense -- with 225 yards rushing on 32 carries (7.0 yards per carry -- with no appreciable halftime adjustment by our defense) ... while Peterson gained 119 yards rushing on 28 carries (4.25 yards per carry) in the 2005 and 2006 games vs. Chizik's Longhorn defenses.
225 yards, 12 points. How many yards did KSU manage on the ground this past contest? How about Nebraska? Who cares? I mean, you realize you have to defend both, yes?
In reply to:
(5) In terms of half-time adjustments, the 2006 Horns' defense held Adrian Peterson to 38 yards rushing on 13 carries (2.9 yards per carry) with the game on the line in the second half of the 2006 RRS.
What was actually adjusted? Be specific.
In reply to:
(6) In the Ohio State rematch, you inadvertently left out the fact that Tarell Brown was unexpectedly removed from the Horns' defensive secondary the week of the game. [Note: Tarell Brown was a returning senior CB who had played ahead of Aaron Ross for three consecutive Defensive Coordinators at Texas ... and Tarell generally was ranked as one of the top-five CBs in the Country going into the 2006 football season.]
Thank you for the reminder of who Tarrell Brown is. But unless he plays safety, it wouldn't have made a lick of difference. Brown being out isn't why we lost. I don't hold The Chiz anymore accountable for tOSU than anybody else. We were just outclassed. It happens. Any mention of the tOSU game was for a more global point of why the scheme he chose to help against the run wasn't the best fit for our personnel, and highlights his lack of adjustments against spread teams.
In reply to:
(7) You decry the lack of team football-speed among our linebackers ... and then mention that a factor of relative insignificance (as compared, in your view, to our defensive schemes) was the number of injuries suffered by the Horns' fastest linebackers this past season (e.g., Drew Kelson, Roddrick Muckelroy and Sergio Kindle) ... as if that's Chizik's fault.
First, it's not his fault. I said as much. But let me ask you, When Kelson and Muck get hurt, do you just continue to do what doesn't work with their backups and hope for the best? Not at this level, you don't.
Second, Bobino and Killebrew started. It's not like we expected to have better cover guys going into the year than what we ended up with. And, Kelson and Kindle stunk this year after coming back, Kindle especially. When I say fast LBs, I mean LBs who play fast, not who can run fast. Speed needs direction.
The point is, if at any point you find yourself trotting out Derry, Bobino, and Killebrew, you don't want to be relying on those guys to cover slot receivers and tight ends one on one.
In reply to:
(8) You also seem inclined to slow-play the impact of injuries to key DL players this past season, such as DE Brian Robison and DTs Frank Okam and Derek Lokey ... as well as the nagging injuries for DBs Tarell Brown, Marcus Griffin and Michael Griffin ... in other words, at least eight (and arguably nine, if you count Kindle) of the Horns' starters on defense were either playing injured -- or were literally out of the game -- much of this past season.
I am not inclined at all. You are wrong.
In reply to:
(9) Assuming you are correct that Gene Chizik was a "fraud" in his two seasons as the Defensive Coordinator at Texas -- when the Horns' average final national ranking in Total Defense was No. 16, and our average final national ranking in Scoring Defense was No. 17 -- where does that leave:
(a) Bob Stoops - OU's average final national rankings for the same two seasons were No. 15 in Total Defense and No. 28 in Scoring Defense,
(b) Pete Carroll - USC's average final national rankings for the same two seasons were No. 34 in Total Defense and No. 23 in Scoring Defense, and
(c) Greg Robinson - the 2004 Horns' final national rankings in those two categories were No. 23 in Total Defense and No. 18 in Scoring Defense.
Are Stoops, Carroll and Robinson also "frauds" as defensive coaches (the area in which both Stoops and Carroll supposedly specialize)?
No, they aren't. Is Greg Davis a better offensive coach than Urban Meyer? His average blah blah blah.
In reply to:
(10) It is interesting that the 2004 Horns yielded 320 yards a game in Total Defense, while the 2005 Horns yielded 303 yards a game in Total Defense ... and the 2006 Horns yielded 297 yards a game in Total Defense. Somehow that seems inconsistent with the deification of Greg Robinson and the vilification of Gene Chizik.
You're right. We were better this year than ever before. You got me. I am the "fraud."
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sessamoid
2500+ posts
02/15/07 08:43 PM
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In reply to:
(10) It is interesting that the 2004 Horns yielded 320 yards a game in Total Defense, while the 2005 Horns yielded 303 yards a game in Total Defense ... and the 2006 Horns yielded 297 yards a game in Total Defense. Somehow that seems inconsistent with the deification of Greg Robinson and the vilification of Gene Chizik.
Wow, are you really that clueless? Here's a hint: new clock rules. The game was significantly shortened by the new clock rules. On the average, everybody had better defense than in recent memory based on total yardage. Given the number of offensive plays lost, we should have had a much lower total defense average than we did.
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Okichi
100+ posts
02/15/07 09:25 PM
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Woohoo!! I can almost smell the making of another "I-Fomation" thread. Menjou = Hpslugga on defense??? 
Yes Sir, we'll be back.
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Hpslugga
10,000+ posts
02/16/07 09:32 AM
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In reply to:
Woohoo!! I can almost smell the making of another "I-Fomation" thread
Ugh. Right up there with capes and orange pants 
I refuse to read protest signatures
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badmoonrising
25+ posts
02/16/07 03:55 PM
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lets not forget that greg robinson had the great Derrick Fn Johnson!
Also.....lets face it...losing Michael Huff and Cedric Griffen were huge loses...you can't expect the D to be as good when losing those players.
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Steinbeckford
2500+ posts
02/16/07 05:16 PM
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I feel for this thread so hard.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal labotomy.
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bizzle
250+ posts
02/16/07 05:27 PM
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Menjou+kchorn=occaional chiming in of Hpslugga = great thread.
Again, for the umpteenth time - kchorn is my favorite poster on the interweb.
Listen to: Doves/Rogue Wave/Elbow/Sufjan
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ILoveChickFilA
500+ posts
02/18/07 01:28 PM
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Whether or not kchorn was wrong or right, it makes for a much more interesting read if there is two opposing view points. High five to kchorn and menjou. Opinions are opinions, although there are such things are right opinions. I will say Chizik is very stubborn and the loss of Lokey AND Huff was bigger than we think it was.
"We're not going to be scared," Young said. "We're going to be pumped. Nervousness is not a part of the University of Texas."
"This is one night we can hook 'em and hold down the little finger, because we're No. 1" -Mack Brown
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I_Live_In_OK
500+ posts
02/19/07 01:12 PM
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In reply to:
(10) It is interesting that the 2004 Horns yielded 320 yards a game in Total Defense, while the 2005 Horns yielded 303 yards a game in Total Defense ... and the 2006 Horns yielded 297 yards a game in Total Defense. Somehow that seems inconsistent with the deification of Greg Robinson and the vilification of Gene Chizik.
I am loving this thread as it is very insightful in every sense of a football x's & o's discussion, but this is a classic example of kchorn squeezing every last juice, however confirmatory bias it may be, to support a point based on numerous informal fallicies.
force x mass = acceleration = gang tackling
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LocoGringos
2500+ posts
02/19/07 02:33 PM
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In reply to:
We lost a potentially great Okam to his ankle problem, and was (were? Help me out grammar Nazis) left with the mediocre version.
Since the verb supports "we", "were" is correct. Further, since it is a compound verb sharing the same subject ("we") there is no comma after "problem".
While the original post is an interesting read, I'm more inerested in the Xs and Os on the Double Eagle [censored] Your World with a Chainsaw Flex we likely will be running next year. On another thread, I learned that, if the new D is similar to what Duff and Akina ran at Arizona, there will be crazy people coming from crazy angles; it will be a defense that seeks to set a tempo on the offense, in contrast to last year's somewhat passive D, as indicated by Menjou.
Mi burrito es es grande
Mi burrito is supreme
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jimmyjazz
5000+ posts
02/19/07 04:56 PM
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I have a different thought on the Menjou vs. kchorn sideshow:
Can one of you guys explain how we consistently recruit like nobody's business and neither Greg Robinson or Gene Chizik ever fielded a legitimate top 10 defense? (Or Bull Reese, for that matter, discounting the fact that one season we did manage to climb to the top of the statistics heap under his "tutelage"?)
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facemask
500+ posts
02/19/07 05:16 PM
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2005 scoring defense: 8th
The Link
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