VYFan
2500+ posts
08/13/08 05:08 PM
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This thread is an interesting microcosm of how these discussions go. We start with alarmist reports that the North pole might melt this year. When it is doubted, back on page one, the GW pushers begin making over the top insulting and condescending remarks. As the evidence comes in, the alarmist reports turn out mistaken. Now, reporting that the evidence shows the alarmist reports mistaken, those reporting it are attacked personally, (and, as usual, along religiously bigoted lines).
What is so hard to understand about a position that the earth has warmed ever so slightly over a hundred years, that we really are not sure why, that man-made sources may be responsible for some very small fraction of that increase, that the portion of man-made responsibility which can be eliminated with all-out change to our way of life is an even smaller sliver of that unknown small fraction of that ever-so-slight increase over 100 years..... such that, reasonable measures to reduce our impact on the planet should be pursued, but there is insufficient indication to commit any financial suicide on this evidence? Mop was only rightly pointing out that if you wanted to spend inordinate resources on this concern, it may make more sense to prepare than to try to prevent a trend that MAY be of warming but IS almost surely out of our control.
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mop
2500+ posts
08/13/08 07:44 PM
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i think i agree with every point you made VYFan......thanks.
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mop
2500+ posts
08/14/08 06:06 AM
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In reply to:
Preliminary Unofficial Day 226 Race Report
2008 has a relatively big day, increasing its lead on 2005 and 2006.
8 14 2002 6.461094 -0.088437
8 14 2003 6.741875 -0.062656
8 13 2004 6.822813 -0.082500
8 14 2005 6.251719 -0.042969
8 14 2006 6.404063 -0.052812
8 14 2007 5.347813 -0.031406
8 13 2008 6.130781 -0.091719
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GT WT
250+ posts
08/14/08 08:01 AM
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Re: North pole to melt this year?
[re: mop] |
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VYFan seems not to have been paying attention.
MOP, I'm happier when I don't respond directly to you. However, this point is important and I'll make this last objection. I don't dislike you because you are Christian. I dislike you because you insist on attacking science. Some Christians do that (e.g., Dembski, Johnson, & Behe) but many do not (Ken Miller and many others). It's not your faith I object to, it's your attack on reason.
"If English was good enough for Jesus Christ it's good enough for our little Texas school children"
Ma Ferguson
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VYFan
2500+ posts
08/14/08 08:38 AM
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Actually, it's a fair point that I haven't paid attention. I kind of read the first and last page. Sorry if I was off point. Still, the tenor of personal attacks seems there, where if the GW assumptions are questioned, you must be a blithering idiot, probably a religious kook.
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GT WT
250+ posts
08/14/08 10:32 AM
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Re: North pole to melt this year?
[re: VYFan] |
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In reply to:
if the GW assumptions are questioned, you must be a blithering idiot, probably a religious kook.
I'm sorry. You were paying attention.
"If English was good enough for Jesus Christ it's good enough for our little Texas school children"
Ma Ferguson
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mop
2500+ posts
08/14/08 10:46 AM
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Re: North pole to melt this year?
[re: GT WT] |
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GT...you are blatantly a bigot. i feel no need to sugarcoat that for you. if i plugged in other people groups into your lame excuse, no one would buy it. i suspect no one who is honest with themselves is buying it now. my global warming posts put forth far more raw data than anything else and FAR more raw data than those of you who oppose me on almost entirely emotional grounds. don't kid yourself. you are a bigot.
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GT WT
250+ posts
08/14/08 12:06 PM
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Re: North pole to melt this year?
[re: mop] |
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I don't like MOP. That makes me a 'bigot.' Oh well, it could be worse. I could have a problem with racial minorities, religious minorities, or women. Instead I'm biased against idiots. My bad.
"If English was good enough for Jesus Christ it's good enough for our little Texas school children"
Ma Ferguson
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Gadfly
500+ posts
08/14/08 01:27 PM
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What has become of hornfans? In the old days, threads were bumped because of ice cream cones melting in the hands of attractive young ladies.
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mop
2500+ posts
08/14/08 04:24 PM
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GT...disliking me is not a problem. but making regular comments about my faith or practice of my faith is. it reveals a more sinister side to your comments that go beyond disliking me. if i happened to dislike someone who was Mexican it would not require that i make racist comments about their being Mexican. you are being disingenuous.
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VYFan
2500+ posts
08/14/08 05:42 PM
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In reply to:
I'm sorry. You were paying attention.
I hate to send mixed messages, but that was funny.
I don't mind being teased. I also don't think people need to be overly sensitive to being offended.
On the other hand, if you look into your heart, and the truth is that when someone says to you that he is a Christian, you actually discount everything he says after that... then you really do have a bigotry problem.
Honestly, would you put up with posters on hornfans who continually mocked and discounted a particular poster's opinions because the guy was gay, or black or whatever? I mean it's one thing to tease a guy, which I think is okay, but there is a difference.
I'm really not trying to call you out or be all "PC" on you; I'm just trying to hold a mirror up in a way you might see that point differently.
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mop
2500+ posts
08/14/08 11:50 PM
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Preliminary Unofficial Day 227 Race Report
2008 has a moderate day, losing ground wrt 2005, widening the gap wrt 2006.
8 15 2002 6.375000 -0.086094
8 15 2003 6.677656 -0.064219
8 14 2004 6.753906 -0.068907
8 15 2005 6.183125 -0.068594
8 15 2006 6.363438 -0.040625
8 15 2007 5.307344 -0.040469
8 14 2008 6.077344 -0.054531
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GT WT
250+ posts
08/15/08 10:27 AM
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Re: North pole to melt this year?
[re: VYFan] |
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VYFan,
It's amazing to me how sensitive Christians are about being disliked or discriminated against. Christians (at least nominal Christians) are a huge majority in the US and they hold almost all political power. This is, whether I like it or not, a Christian nation.
That said, I have no problem with Christians. I have been married to a Christian. I have raised three Christians. I love them dearly. I respect most of the Christians on this board. Theu, Battleship, and many others are open about their religion and I find their posts intelligent and interesting even when I disagree with them.
I do have a problem with those who insist that their holy book is the final arbiter of everything - history, culture, and science. It's not surprizing that the traits shared by many pseudoscience perveyers are that they're white, male, ultra-conservative, and fundamentalist Christian.
I consider moderate Christians to be my allies in opposition to folks like MOP. They are as concerned with such silliness as I am.
Please don't confuse my dislike of MOP and his BS with dislike of Christians. Please don't confuse my dislike of fundamentalism with dislike of Christianity or any religion. It may still mean I'm a bigot, but it's bigotry against a much smaller group than is encompassed by Christianity.
"If English was good enough for Jesus Christ it's good enough for our little Texas school children"
Ma Ferguson
Edited by GT WT (08/15/08 01:10 PM)
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mop
2500+ posts
08/15/08 05:35 PM
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Re: North pole to melt this year?
[re: GT WT] |
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In reply to:
I do have a problem with those who insist that their holy book is the final arbiter of everything - history, culture, and science. It's not surprizing that the traits shared by many pseudoscience perveyers are that they're white, male, ultra-conservative, and fundamentalist Christian.
this is a perfect example of your bigotry. i challenge you to find any post of mine where this quote of yours accurately represents me. this is such a distortion of what i believe. furthermore, i assure you that i share most opinions with Theu. i share your enthusiasm for his views and almost never disagree with him (i don't recall ever disagreeing with him, but in the interest of realism i put "almost never').
you have decided who you think i am and it is a distortion and a caricature of reality. this is a perfect example of how bigoted against me you are. your bigotry stems from the fact that you know i am a conservative Christian so therefore i must be a "fundamentalist" and i must beileve "yada yada yada."
you just keep digging a hole for yourself. not that i expect a substantive answer from you because you have repeatedly revealed an inablity to respond to such challenges, but i challenge you to show me any post where i have invoked the Bible in such a way described or even made any of the claims you accuse me of. not vague generalities or suspicions....actual posts. show me where i have justified your false depictions of me.
over and over you try to put me in this ridiculous box that i just don't fit into. you assume that my motivations for not believing in global warming are biblical. they are nothing of the sort. what possible reason would i have biblically for not believing man is capable of screwing up the environment?
i have explicitly stated repeatedly that i am very confident that man is more than capable of screwing up our world tremendously and in fact, we already have in many serious ways. stop trying to cram me into your ridiculous "fundamentalist" box. i don't fit.
when we disagree, we really just disagree, it isn't because i fulfill your fantasies (yes fantasies) of what a conservative Christian probably believes.
in the mean time....i repeat....you are a bigot.
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mop
2500+ posts
08/15/08 05:36 PM
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in the mean time, interesting editorial in the UK Register:
arctic not melting as predicted
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mop
2500+ posts
08/15/08 11:36 PM
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Re: North pole to melt this year?
[re: mop] |
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In reply to:
Preliminary Unofficial Day 228 Race Report
2008 has a big day, likely increasing its lead on 2005 and greatly increasing its lead on 2006.
8 16 2002 6.391094 0.016094
8 16 2003 6.640313 -0.037343
8 15 2004 6.692813 -0.061093
8 16 2005 6.100156 -0.082969
8 16 2006 6.339219 -0.024219
8 16 2007 5.241406 -0.065938
8 15 2008 5.986094 -0.085000
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GT WT
250+ posts
08/16/08 11:05 AM
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Re: North pole to melt this year?
[re: mop] |
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The author of the article in the Register is Steve Goddard. But who in the heck is Steve Goddard?
The Link
"If English was good enough for Jesus Christ it's good enough for our little Texas school children"
Ma Ferguson
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Texoz
5000+ posts
08/16/08 11:41 AM
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VY Fan et al,
As it stands now, 2008 is nearly 1.50 million square kilometers (580,000 square miles) behind the twenty year average. While it's not as bad as 2007, it's bad. Very bad.
The Link
This makes me wonder if you (and others) understand the significance of the summer ice melt in the North Pole for last three years? Because I don't think you do. If you did, you wouldn't be so confused or unconcerned about what's happening this year.
I had a feeling that when some scientists predicted that 2008 might be ice free in the Arctic, it would give people like you a chance to say, "See! Those scientists are wrong and it's not the bad."
However, I guess you've conveinently forgotten that three years ago the scientific consensus was that we were at least 50 years away from being ice free in the Arctic in the summer. Many even said at least 100 years. That's how dramatic the ice loss has been in the last three years.
So you guys/girls keep whistling past the graveyard. Meanwhile, my friend Al Bedo just keeps doing his job.
Victory begins and ends with VY
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mop
2500+ posts
08/16/08 12:32 PM
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Texoz...you make some very fair and excellent points. however, you have conveniently left out the many dire predictions that have been made which have NOT come to pass. the fact that james hansen predicted radical warming in 1988 when he first made his announcement and now, 20 years later, the earth is COOLER. i am concerned about the arctic ice melt. i want to see it get to more "average" ice levels, however, this is not a confirmation that it's melt off is caused by humans.
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hornpharmd
5000+ posts
08/16/08 01:07 PM
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nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_timeseries.png
I posted a link a little earlier but didn't post this graph directly. This is updated daily and the 2008 Arctic Ice is decreasing rapidly and approaching the 2007 level. We'll have to see how far down that goes though it generally starts to level out this time of year.
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